As an Air Force veteran this all is all hitting home so hard. I joined the Air Force right out of high school because my dad was in the Air Force and my grandfather was in the Army Air Corp, so of course I bought everything they were selling. We always made jokes about turning the Middle East into glass, or said little slogans like, “When it absolutely has to be destroyed overnight, call the Air Force.” I wish I could chalk that up to being young and dumb, but the leadership perpetuated these things and after 9/11 it really dehumanized what we were doing. I felt proud knowing that bombs I loaded on a plane were not there when it came back. I never once questioned why they attacked us in the first place. And I certainly didn’t learn about global politics with my high school education from Texas.
After I got out, and got educated, and started seeing the world through a larger lens, it shifted my point of view. I’ve gone from hardcore republican who voted for George W Bush, to voting for Bernie Sanders. I feel ashamed of how I used to think and act. I am very anti-war on all fronts. No one should ever have to lay down their life for some shithead politician.
With that said, I made the horrible decision to go to the Air Force subreddit to see what they were saying about these recent events. And it hurt me to see them all spouting the same shit I would have said 20 years ago. Crap about how the middle east has been fighting each other for 1,000 years, so we should just let them all kill themselves. And they strongly pushed the Aaron Bushnell was just some crazy radical anarchist. Or people saying his leadership failed him, or how did he have a security clearance, etc. There was not one single mention of how what was going on over there is beyond fucked up.
So, seeing other veterans stand up for this makes me feel a little better and gives me hope. I just hope that is makes it’s way down the ranks and into the young service members and recruits.
I feel ashamed of how I used to think and act.
Hey friend, I would like to offer you a reframing of this situation. Despite being exposed to some of the strongest cultural indoctrination into warmongering and the military, you made it out and embraced empathy and learning. That’s huge. I’m proud of you, that’s a positive change most people never make. You should be proud of it.
I just hope that is makes it’s way down the ranks
You have a powerful and important story. Sharing it like you did just now helps more than hopes can. Keep sharing it, you never know who might be reading it and encouraged to question the lessons they were taught.
Thanks. It definitely helps to hear someone reframe it like that. It was actually cathartic just typing that all out. The hope that it could encourage others is even better.
Cringing and being disappointed in our previous selves is a good thing. It shows growth and learning. Don’t be too hard on yourself
I’m 100% with you. The deprogramming took years. It feels like I wasted so much of my life, and I’m still trying to figure out where I fit in. What’s almost worse than knowing so many vets are still so brainwashed is watching people who didn’t go through the same programming shill even harder for regressive destruction. I work on a construction site and have to listen to these overconfident fascist blowhards rant all day.
I feel you. Luckily I don’t have to deal with it at work because I work remotely and refuse to discuss politics with my colleagues (although I’m sure most of them know which way I lean). But I do have family to deal with. I’d say 90% of my extended family are either Trump supporters or just hate Democrats so much, that they will vote for Trump. Some have gone so far as to call me unpatriotic for things like supporting BLM, not liking Trump, and calling the people who entered the capital on Jan 6th terrorists. The most ironic part is not a single one of them served in the military. I am the only living veteran in my family, and I’m seen as the crazy left-wing guy.
I appreciate this, you totally get it. I hope you can hold onto that remote job. Makes it so much easier to tune out the hate and nonsense. I remain quiet and comfort myself by knowing that if the chance ever arises, I will do everything I can to undermine them. Which won’t be hard considering most of them have the intellectual capacity of a troglodyte.
Wow the more I talk about this the more I want to leave the US forever. There’s so little left here that matches my values.
Thanks for sharing your story. I hope you continue to tell it. Your point about high school education is important.
At the time the Iraq war was kicking off, I happened to have a history teacher that made us spend every Friday discussing current events. She made it clear to us that the premise of WMDs in Iraq was a lie and that the war would turn out like Vietnam. All these years later these ideas are not controversial, but way back then she said it when many people were saying the opposite. Needless to say, it kept me out of the military and helped me understand what was going on. Critical thinking is so important and we need capable public educators who can encourage young people to think for themselves. It can have a major impact on the life paths people choose.
That’s awesome that you had a teacher who did that. That is one of the main reasons I’m planning on moving out of Texas. I want my kids to get educated by teachers who are not under constant threat from the state.
crazy radical anarchist
Yeah because setting ourselves on fire is just something us “crazy radical anarchists” do on a regular basis.
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Lmao i love how stupid you people are with joining the military and then realizing you were brainwashed.
Someone who is stupid would stay brainwashed but clearly this individual woke up. If you’re taught something from the day you were born then it is ingrained into you and quite hard to change. Thankfully many of the youth have started seeing the bullshit sooner but there are still people being bred into this ideology that need a chance to see the world and form their own opinions lest they be stuck in their parents ways.
In case you haven’t seen it there’s a great documentary from 2005 about the anti-war movement within the ranks of the United States Armed Forces during the Vietnam War.
Weeeelllll back in the day we called soldiers “baby killers” and then after 9/11 we had to jerk every military member off we saw and repeat “thank you for your service” with a handful of dick.
“Oh you hide under your bed everytime a firecracker goes off? You should do
heroinoxycodone for that”-Post 9-11 VA.
To be fair they actually were killing babies
Still do, but they used to, too.
Just watched that documentary earlier this week. Really good documentary and highly recommend it.
I’m not sure how to feel about the level of support shown for Bushnell, when previous self-immolators have been thoroughly ignored.
Part of me is glad that his death is not in vain, and his friends and family can take some solace in that fact.
But part of me is terrified that 20 more people are going to try similar stunts and achieve… less-than-nothing.
There are already too many martyrs. We need agitators. You can’t agitate if you’re dead or otherwise removed.
Please: If you’re considering Aaron Bushnell an inspiration, be inspired by the fact that he did something unusual, not that he did something self-destructive. Go throw some soup on a Van Gogh instead.
You are correct… Bushnell isn’t even the first USian to self-immolate as a form of protest this decade - the others barely made the news.
While I can’t bring myself to criticise people like Bushnell (for obvious reasons), I also cannot endorse it. I don’t want to die for a cause - I want to make the fascists die for theirs.
I don’t want to die for a cause - I want to make the fascists die for theirs.
Honestly this is one of the best quotables I’ve found on the internet this year. Permission to steal?
It’s a paraphrase from a Patton quote. I don’t have the exact quote readily available, but the gist is, “The objective of war isn’t to die for one’s country, but to make some other poor bastard die for his.”
I worry about this too. I don’t like self immolation as a form of protest. Normally I’d say it accomplishes nothing, but in this case it did draw a lot of attention – that by no means though should be an endorsement for others to do this. We can find better, equally effective ways to organize. There’s already enough senseless death going on.
I appreciate his gesture, but I wish he hadn’t done it. I wish he was alive.
Except for that last part. Don’t waste food. And don’t destroy unique stuff.(Yes, the van Gogh was protected by glass iirc, but most other paintings aren’t) Plenty of ways to get attention without doing irreversible damage to art.
(Yes, the van Gogh was protected by glass iirc, but most other paintings aren’t)
The van Gogh was chosen specifically because it was protected by glass.
You apparently have way too much faith in copycats and people without critical-thinking skills…
Always love to see Beau’s content linked in the wild. Good stuff.
previous self-immolators have been thoroughly ignored
Arguably a self imolator ended the war in Vietnam. He absolutely got the ball rolling.
That happened in 1963. The war only got worse and went on 10 more years.
Yep. It took quite a few for the reality of the war to kick in for most people.
Arguably a self imolator ended the war in Vietnam.
No, he fucking didn’t. The Vietnamese breaking the US military through the use of force ended the war in Vietnam.
No. The Vietnamese did not “break” the US military. We got tired of being there, though.
I hate to be the one to break it to you… but the Vietnamese broke the US military. Swallow all the cope the propagandists have been spoon-feeding you about this since the 70s - it doesn’t change anything.
What do you mean by “broke”? I’m quite literally in a class on the Vietnam War this semester, writing a paper about how ineffective our policy of bombing an agrarian society that only needed to supply its forces 50 tons of supplies a day.
Please, elaborate.
ineffective our policy of bombing an agrarian society
“Ineffective” at what? The indiscriminate carnage that the US visited on SE Asia from the air was possibly the most effective mass-slaughter campaign ever perpetrated by a colonialist power - it was even more effective than the colonialist slaughter Germany visited on eastern Europe and the Soviet Union during WW2.
So no… as far as the tenets of colonialist warfare is concerned, it was perfectly effective.
At stopping supplies and people from moving south?
So, our goal was genocide? I’m not saying we were the good guys, but clearly we weren’t comparable to the fucking Nazis eastern campaign.
You still didn’t answer what it meant to break the US military.
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You’re literally calling for domestic terrorism on American soil. You aren’t a victim here, bro. No one is trying to take your tendies. Go outside, touch some grass, have a drink, and get yourself a hooker. Some post-nut clarity will do you good.
He’s calling for direct action against American imperialism. If that scares you, I suggest taking a good hard look at the world and what America has done to it. Believe me, nothing that could happen to America would be worse than it’s done to others.
You’re literally calling for domestic terrorism on American soil.
And that’s a bad thing because…?
Do you know what the definition of terrorism is?
You require a “definition” to know what terrorism looks like?
No but apparently you do to know that terrorism is a bad thing
terrorism is a bad thing
Oh it is, is it? Seems to me that these days the term “terrorism” is only applied to the actions of people who doesn’t act in lock-step with white supremacists and their liberal protectors… pretty soon, the term “terrorist” might be a badge of honor for everybody that doesn’t have a swastika tattoo hidden underneath their shirt.
So go ahead… tell me all about “terrorism.”
Ah yes, it’s liberals who are the problem. It’s liberals who want you to bent to authority, for sure. It’s liberals who are supporting the IDF
You’re attempting sarcasm, but it kinda falls flat when the liberals did indeed line up to give more funding to Israel right alongside the conservatives.
Are democrats liberals now? Did I miss something?
In the US, modern liberalism is definitely associated with the Democrats. Whether they are truly liberal or not can be debated, but they are almost always referred to as liberals over here.
Always have been.
Ah yes, it’s liberals who are the problem.
Lol! Close your mouth… you don’t want all that sarcasm back-blast getting in there.
Liberals, huh?
What political affiliation is Netanyahu?
And what affiliation is his bestie, Biden?
No war but class war.
Just how many times you were dropped on your head?
Lemon
All of the stairs
This is why they refer to the cohort as “blue MAGA.”
And they rightly do so.
No tankies, we dont call all left leaning people Tankies, its specifically those of you that suck off Russia and China
But that means a bunch of GOP Reps and Senators are tankies. They love sucking off Russia!
I see nothing wrong with this definition
Same
Never said I support either.
Cool, you’re not a Tankie then!
Tankie has become shorthand for anyone who believes in Communism, Russia isn’t Communist China is.
I don’t know that I’d call them communist honestly. They have a pretty equal blend of capitalism and communism.
There’s capitalism and communism in both, but first and foremost they’re dictatorships.
Russia is more capitalist then we are.
I don’t see how you could say after ‘shock therapy’ that Russia is still a blend of communism in good faith.
Like, I’m not trying to say Russia is a democracy, because obviously it isn’t, but the communist party is explicitly banned in Russia.
It’s quite understated just how much worse capitalism is in Russia. They have outright oligarchs, who make US CEOs look like equitable angels.
You can use them as a litmus test for Western politicians who claim to be leftist. If they rail against domestic billionaires and corps but have no issue dining with Russian oligarchs, they’re just trying to trick you. Jill Stein is the foremost example that comes to mind.
jill stein did not dine with russian oligarchs, and she has been critical of them. so you’re kind of making things up.
She was at the RT dinner with quite a few big names.
Its shorthand for those who suck off Russia and China. If you are a communist who understands that those two countries are the exact opposite of ideals we should shoot for, you are not a Tankie
Fuck Putin.
Guillotine Putin
Oh look… a liberal who doesn’t know what the term tankie means. Do they churn you out in a mould or something?
They’re the real veterans “for the truth”, unlike these hacks.
Mike Prysner is fucking based.
Most y’all would call him a tankie and shoo him out of here.
Does he believe in the state using force to kill and brutally suppress its citizens to enforce their rule and limit democratic freedoms?
Because you can be a leftist and not support that shit by holding positive views of the Soviet Union or China. We don’t call those people tankies, we call tankies tankies.
PSL is ML, so yeah, unfortunately.
Edit: let’s talk for a minute about some really important history here. Leninists have ridden anarchists to victory then turned around and murdered them, starting with Lenin himself. Makhnovists saved the Red Army from being destroyed by the white. The Soviet Revolution was originally an anarchist one until it was betrayed by the Bolsheviks, who murdered anarchists from the beginning.
Even Trotskyists need to be held accountable for this, since Trotsky himself was responsible for crushing dissent at Kronostat.
Aaron Bushnell was an anarchist. He was an anarchist service member. MLs honoring his sacrifice need to face the fact that their ideological ancestors did murder people like him for their own resistence.
MLs try to take over anarchist actions even today. PSL has tried to co-opt actions that my anarchist comrades have organized. They are overwhelmingly ineffective, which is why the feed so much on anarchist energy and appropriate anarchist actions all the time. Tankies use anarchists to get attention for themselves and dispose of us when we become inconvenient.
And if you can’t honestly acknowledge the dissonance between the history of appropriation and oppression of people who you openly acknowledge are on the same side as you, then you don’t really want a more free and equitable world, you just want your cult to wear the boots that are on everyone else’s neck.
So yeah, fuck tankies. This is a great action. Don’t let them appropriate it.
Hell yeah. What an awesome comment. I appreciate you!
Leninists have ridden anarchists to victory then turned around and murdered them
The Murray Rothbard Aficionado has logged on.
Observe the natural tendency of the tankie to label the left anarchist as a reactionary whenever confronted with facts. Notice the complete refusal to engage with those facts and instead distract from them by attempting to discredit the anarchist.
natural tendency
Oh yeah, we’ve got a Rothbardian in our midst.
Literally anything to avoid reality, especially stabbing other communists in the back. Lol, ok tankie.
stabbing other communists in the back
Real Fascist Rhetoric Hours
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Because you can be a leftist and not support that shit by holding positive views of the Soviet Union or China.
To paraphrase Muhammad Ali: “I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No Viet Cong ever called me the N-word”.
Hitler never tried to kill me based on my ethnicity but I’ve still got a problem with him.
You can and should oppose fascism and authoritarianism without being the targeted victim.
Ali was making a statement about his refusal to be sent to fight in Vietnam. That soldiers are individuals, and that they have more in common with each other than they do with their own leadership.
I mean, yeah fascism and its leadership must be opposed in all its forms, but the average German soldier in WW2 wasn’t any more brainwashed than the average American soldier is now.
The armies of the enemy are not our enemy. They are distant parts of ourselves, ruled over by wicked masters just as we are.
And that relates to being critical of and not supporting authoritarian regimes how?
It’s a warning, that in fighting fascism we must always remember that the enemy is not the people to avoid becoming the oppressor.
Me: Because you can be a leftist and not support that shit by holding positive views of the Soviet Union or China.
Them: To paraphrase Muhammad Ali: “I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. No Viet Cong ever called me the N-word”.
You: It’s a warning, that in fighting fascism we must always remember that the enemy is not the people to avoid becoming the oppressor.
That seems like a very unrelated tangent you’ve gone on here?
Unless you’re trying to argue that the people who push for and actively want those oppressive regimes are not the enemy? Which is so utterly ridiculous that I don’t think that’s your point.
Hitler never tried to kill me
We didn’t enter the war with Germany until after Pearl Harbor. So, it was less Hitler than Tojo that ultimately provoked our entry into the war.
You can and should oppose fascism and authoritarianism
It should be noted that FDR opposed fascism in Europe by sending enormous amounts of military aid to a certain Russian Communist by the name of Joseph Stalin. Quite a few of his peers argued the opposite. It was Stalin who was the true menace and Hitler who should have been our natural ally.
So, who should we have opposed? The Fascist or the Authoritarian?
Americans thinking the world is America.
The first great communist revolution of the 20th century began as an anti-war movement during WW1.
And look how shit that turned after Stalin got involved.
Are you saying you have no issue with China because you aren’t a Uigher?
Leftism should be accompanied by the belief that no matter where someone is born or with what traits, they should be able to live a happy and comfy life. No government should be exempt from persecuting people. A Tankie says “well, hold on” if it’s a government they like.
Leftism should be accompanied by the belief that no matter where someone is born or with what traits, they should be able to live a happy and comfy life.
You’re not describing “Leftism”. You’re describing “Consumerism”. The leftist struggle for a free and equitable society does not guarantee happiness or comfort. It guarantees a worker’s right to the fruits of one’s labor.
And sending troops abroad to butcher civilians and burn down their homes does nothing to accomplish either.
A Tankie says “well, hold on”
Again, it is absolutely crazy to see to “tankie” conflated with “please stop bombing people”.
How the hell did you get “a Tankie says to stop bombing people” from “a Tankie excuses genocides if they like the country”?
My whole point is that there’s certain countries where they don’t say “please stop bombing people” and make excuses defending the country instead.
It’s very telling however that your thought of people being able to live happily and freely no matter where they’re born or with what traits is “consumerism”.
“a Tankie excuses genocides if they like the country”
Fascists constantly telling me that we need to bomb the village in order to save it, and if you don’t support napalming My Lai, you’re with the Terrorists.
My whole point is that there’s certain countries where they don’t say “please stop bombing people”
Name. That. Country.
It’s very telling however that your thought of people being able to live happily and freely no matter where they’re born or with what traits is “consumerism”.
Its Utopian to believe people simply stop having problems under a particular ideological system. Capitalists and Communists alike need to deal with droughts and pandemics and supply chain failures and climate change.
Neither system guarantees people happiness and freedom.
But recognizing ecological limits means you’re a “tankie”? While devouring seed corn because it makes you happy is… what? Real Leftism?
I get the feeling we are terribly misunderstanding each other and talking past the other. I think I see your point about there being problems in any system, but I think it behooves us to strive for the ideal, even if it’s unattainable.
In general, Russia tends to be the country that tankies make excuses for. Instead of condemning the actual country invading Ukraine and bombing civilians, they’ll say it’s Ukraine’s fault for wanting to join NATO, for instance.
If you disagree with that thinking, then good. You aren’t a Tankie. There were a number of “leftist” thinkers at the outset of the war who blamed the West and NATO for Russia invading, instead of Russia. And some still insist the bloodshed has to stop by Ukraine suing for peace, instead of Russia leaving.
Fascists constantly telling me that we need to bomb the village in order to save it, and if you don’t support napalming My Lai, you’re with the Terrorists.
In Ukraine war, Tankies suggest Russia is just defending itself and its “spheres of influence”. It’s not dissimilar from your example. If you don’t understand Russia’s “very reasonable” response of bombing Ukraine to prevent it from joining NATO, you’re called a Western imperialist, unironically.
The other main example is with China and the Uighurs. Detaining a cultural group in concentration camps and forcibly reeducating them and erasing their culture is typically seen as genocide, but with China you’ll hear Tankies make excuses that it’s to stop terrorism and that is all Western propaganda and there’s nothing suspicious going on at all.
Once again, if that isn’t you, you aren’t a Tankie. I’d argue tankies actually have a concerning natural alliance with fascists.
Moderates are eager to paint leftists as Tankies when that isn’t the case, I agree with you there. That doesn’t mean the term has no meaning nor utility however.
Everyone here who isn’t a center right Biden supporter is essentially a tankie according to the majority of users here.
Anarchists who show a modicum of respect for MLs and don’t go along with the center right party line? TANKIES!
Communists of all sorts who might find themselves somewhere in the middle of Y axis? TANKIES!
Left unity in face of the center right? TANKIES!
You don’t vote Biden? China or Russian psyop and a tankie!
The majority of users on Lemmy are leftists, so I doubt that immensely.
The majority of users on Lemmy are leftists
Liberals aren’t leftists. You don’t have much excuse for not knowing the difference by now.
I said leftists, because they are.
The majority here are not liberals.
The majority here are not liberals.
The majority of people here are liberals - not leftists.
Strongly disagree.
The majority of people here aren’t tankie fucks, but they’re certainly leftists.
The majority of users on Lemmy are
leftistsliberals, so I doubt that immensely.ftfy. At least on lemmy.world. And no being a liberal doesn’t make you a leftist, nor even necessarily left of center, depending on what brand of liberalism you subscribe to.
Give me a fucking break, no self respecting leftist would give Biden their vote. The vast majority here is liberals cosplaying as leftists to undermine actual left unity.
“Everyone to the south of a ML is a liberal”. Ironic.
America has no choice, they don’t live in a democracy. They get to pick Trump or Biden, you can whinge that they should all grab their guns and revolt, but they can’t even get enough people together to peacefully change things so that isn’t happening any time soon.
You can be an accelerationist and hope that Trump winning will create class consciousness, but you’re paying for that with the lives of christo-fash victims.
What’s your solution mate?
It’s too fucking easy with you guys.
What’s your solution?
Tell me more how you don’t understand the US political situation and elections please.
Bam, I fucking knew it! Thanks for proving my point.
I don’t feel like rewording this to better fit the conversation so:
https://lemmy.world/comment/7927657
TL;DR Third party is not viable in the current US voting system no matter how hard you fantasize about it. And not voting for the non wannabe dictator so you can stroke off over how you “showed it to the system” is even dumber or you actually like dictators.
Left unity in face of the center right? TANKIES!
You’re right. As the saying goes, “Vote for who you love in the primaries and against who you can’t stand in the general election.” After all, the enemy of my enemy is-
Give me a fucking break, no self respecting leftist would give Biden their vote.
…the bitter irony.
Let’s face it, the facts are that every 4 years, we have 3-ish years to push for grassroots efforts and electing local officials for things like 3rd party candidates and ranked choice voting, a chance to make a statement by voting for who you love (or a vote against who you hate if you live in a state that let’s independents vote in either primary) that no politician is going to take notice of in the primaries, and then we have to vote against the guy we don’t want in office come the general election.
The Republicans won’t allow us to do otherwise, and for one simple reason: they toe the party line, regardless. They don’t care who is on the ballot. It could be Trump, Bush, Putin, or Stalin himself, risen from the dead to destroy capitalism once and for all. So long as they have that R next to their name, that’s who they’ll vote for. As an old boss of mine once said, and my grandfather before him, both with the same incredulous look as if they couldn’t understand why somebody would possibly ask them who they were voting for: “I’m a Republican. I vote for the nominee.”
Leftists get all riled up once every 4 years, like a swarm of cicadas screaming about 3rd party candidates when it comes time to vote for the President, and then go back to sleep. And the Dems love it. Because Republicans vote down the party line all year long, meaning that when those 4 years come up again, there’s no other choice against the continuing slide further and further right than voting for their corporate sponsored candidate of choice. We need to claw seats from both Dems and Republicans for any meaningful change (preferably from Republicans). Otherwise, weakening the Dems only furthers the goals of the Republicans.
You wanna make a difference? Vote local, vote often, and help other people get to the polls. There’s a reason that election days aren’t holidays, and any real change isn’t going to start with those lifetime appointees whose best interests are in opposing any meaningful change in the system. It’s going to start in your town and state elections.
Fuck yeah. This is an awesome comment. I appreciate you! Keep fighting the good fight.
Appreciate it. My dad was involved in town politics when I was a kid, so I got to see plenty of how policy is shaped by the crusty old Republicans who can show up at every town meeting to spew nonsense and incorrect information and vote on every decision in town because they’re retired and don’t have to worry about work. And then I spent many years training kids at a job and got to see firsthand how those policies drove those kids to get out of town as soon as they’re able. And I understood how they felt because I felt the exact same way.
Remembering how the old ladies used to call the people who wanted to get a new school built “the enemy” still gets my blood boiling.
Holy shit that is him, he’s not even mentioned in the article.
I only call people tankies if they support tankie shit like killing everyone with a college degree, or glasses
I don’t know much about the guy but, as someone thats perfectly willing to call tankies tankies, he seems like the opposite of one. Just don’t do tankie shit and you wont get called one.
Its genuinely crazy to see how quickly Americans have adopted the idea that “Tankie” is the best way to describe Anti-war advocates, while the Blue Lives Matter crowd are in favor of peaceful coexistence.
I have never seen tankie used outside of using it for far left war mongering
far left war mongering
Which country did the Far Left advocate invading recently?
throw a flag in there for good measure
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Have you met a conservative? They lose their God damn mind over the simplest shit
Ahhh, take off the uniform BEFORE burning it! That’s where he went wrong /s
Dude…
Nah bro let him cook
seriously in poor taste
Not really. I mean, this person who everyone here is hailing as a hero has a long and documented history of making even worse jokes about his fellow soldiers dying.
If it’s good for the goose it’s good for the gander.
just because he did it doesnt mean we should. there is no reason we can’t be better.
