cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/20911849
By Umar A Farooq in Washington
Published date: 30 September 2024 11:01 BST
Incoming anti-Muslim hatred from Liberals in 3…2…1…
Just bewilderment. Because snubbing Harris will get you Trump. Who’s a great friend to Gaza /s. So cui bono?
Both are genocidal, letting the DNC get away with genocide solidifies their position. That’s the logic, that the DNC can get away with literal genocide as long as they aren’t the GOP, and in the eyes of Liberals, that’s correct.
You seem to think that letting the more genocidal republicans win would encourage the democrats to be less genocidal, which is bizarre.
They move right when they lose to compete with the republicans because the republicans win with a right wing strategy.
If the democrats won all the time, the republicans would have to move left just to regain power, and the Overton window would move left.
Not voting for the democrats in order to move them left is insanity. They will respond by copying the more successful electoral strategy.
You seem to think that letting the more genocidal republicans win would encourage the democrats to be less genocidal, which is bizarre.
They are the same. They both support Israel undyingly, Biden is even sending in the troops.
They move right when they lose to compete with the republicans because the republicans win with a right wing strategy.
They move right because that’s what their donors want.
If the democrats won all the time, the republicans would have to move left just to regain power, and the Overton window would move left.
No, they wouldn’t. Fascism is Capitalism in decay, both parties are always moving rightward.
Not voting for the democrats in order to move them left is insanity. They will respond by copying the more successful electoral strategy.
If the Democrats don’t want to regain left votes then they are too far gone and we need a revolution.
You’ve tied yourself into all kinds of intricate knots. It’s simple. If you convince all the people who care about Gaza not to vote, things get worse for Gaza.
If only right wing people vote, only right wing policies will win.
If only right wing policies win, only right wing policies will be offered.
You’ve tied yourself into all kinds of intricate knots. It’s simple. If you convince all the people who care about Gaza not to vote, things get worse for Gaza.
I have not. Things will not get worse for Gaza under Trump or Harris, they are fully aligned. Pretending it’s good for Palestinians to be murdered because the bombs are sent by a Dem is monstrous.
Plus, I advocate voting, just for PSL or the Greens, anti-genocide parties.
If only right wing people vote, only right wing policies will win.
Dems are far-right as well, lmao. If you want left views represented, vote for left parties.
If only right wing policies win, only right wing policies will be offered.
Parties pick policies based on donors, not on the public’s opinion.
Well, you go ahead and continue to push the democrats right then. I can’t convince you. The outcome of the election will definitely convince the democrats. And I can tell you they will listen to the republican voters before they log on to lemmy.ml because there’s so many more of them and they actually vote in a way that affects the outcome.
You’re currently a Trump supporter. If you don’t want to be one, you can stop.
Everyone who is not with us, is against us. Traditional (lack of) logic of fanatics.
You’re currently a genocidal pig supporter. If you don’t want to be one, you can stop.
Nah, fuck Trump. The only way I could be seen as a Trump supporter is if you think voting for genocide should be the default.
You’re currently batting for genocide, imperialism, climate collapse, and World War 3, but you can stop.
The first-past-the-post voting system sucks; the resulting two-party system sucks; but right now we have to operate within it. The mathematics of that system entail the simple fact that if you discourage people from keeping Trump out, you are helping get Trump in. That makes you a Trump supporter.
The first-past-the-post voting system sucks; the resulting two-party system sucks; but right now we have to operate within it
Only if you think voting is the extent of political action.
The mathematics of that system entail the simple fact that if you discourage people from keeping Trump out, you are helping get Trump in
And if you encourage getting Harris in, you are helping Harris get in, who has promised imperalism, genocide, World War 3, and failed Climate action.
That makes you a Trump supporter.
In 20 years you’ll look back at yourself, if leftists have managed to prevent the end of the world, as someone who supported a fascist regime and refused to lift a finger against it. I hope you’ll come to your senses much sooner than that.
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The first-past-the-post voting system sucks; the resulting two-party system sucks; but
The hand-wringing isn’t the worst part, but it’s definitely the most annoying. “Don’t worry, I’m disavowing Harris while I vote for her in my non-swing-state, so it doesn’t count even as she uses those votes to claim legitimacy just like Biden did”.
Both hate Arabs and Muslims, Trump is just honest about it. Both support Israel unconditionally, the reality on the ground will be exactly the same, only the rhetoric will change.
No but blindly vote blue
Trump would be worse than the 20 billion dollars of pre approved bombs I can assure you
No such thing as a bad Democrat candidate amirite
Vote blue until Gaza is through, amirite?
Damn she should probably change her policies to not supporting genocide if she wants those votes
I won’t blame someone for not supporting a genocidal pig.
Anyone parroting those tired talking points who thinks Trump would be less of a problem for Gaza or the Palestinians needs to get their head examined.
Trump has already demonstrated that he’s Netanyahu’s bitch.
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My truly white-hot take is that if I had to choose between Palestine being reduced to ash and losing me and my family’s rights and Palestine being reduced to ash and me and my family not losing my rights…I’m going to take the option that involves me and my family not losing my rights lol.
And, to be frank, if I had to choose between helping a million strangers I’ve never met or not, with the lives of my family and friends on the line, I’d probably pick my family and friends over the strangers, regardless of the issue.
You can moan and cry all you want about “you are voting for genocide” or whatever - the fact is that the world is much larger than Palestine. Other things are at stake here. How the fuck are all those Palestinians (who are still going to be bombed by the Republicans btw) going to deal with climate change as its effects worsen when a Republican administration takes power in the US and rolls back all our climate protections and attempts to mitigate climate change? The global poor are FUCKED if we don’t handle that shit as best we can ASAP. Full stop.
I’m personally not interested in fucking over every other person on the planet for Palestine. Is the genocide horrible? Yes. Should it be stopped immediately? Yes. Do I want it to stop? Also, yes. But can I in good conscience actively utilize my vote to wring my hands over genocide and allow an even worse scenario to play out? Fuck no.
There are more things at stake here than just Palestine. Shit sucks, but that’s the world we live in and there won’t be magical change just because you wring your hands and screech on the internet about how random people are “supporting a genocide by voting for Kamala” when any person with half a brain can see that the Republican party has acted the same way in the past and will actively accelerate it when given the chance (remember when Trump pissed everyone off by moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, effectively recognizing the stolen land there?). Grow the fuck up and see that the world isn’t so simple - sometimes there are no good options, only mildly less shitty ones.
Finally a logical fucking comment. I’m sick and tired of people willing to let the US become a fascist hellscape so they can sit on a moral high horse while the US lets Israel glass half the middle east
None of these chickenshit cowards will respond because they know their arguments don’t hold up under the weight of reality. All they have is “b-but Kamala is doing the genocide now and Trump might not do it” when that’s so obviously false it’s kind of stunning. It’s how you know these fucks are either Republican trolls trying to undermine Kamala’s campaign because they know their candidate sucks or they’re just so marinated in propaganda and theory they lack the bandwidth to actually apply basic logic to even the most obvious of situations.
Because Trump and his party are known for being so supportive of Gazans. Idiots. Things DEFINITELY won’t get better under Trump for anyone.
I’m going to be blunt and straightforward about this.
According to Wikipedia, Islam is the third largest religion at 1.1% at about 3.5 million people. Compared at Judaism is at 2.07% at about 7.5 million people.
On the issue of supporting Israel for their horrible acts on the regions surrounding them, morality aside and by just looking at the numbers, if you get 100% of the Muslim American support, you would need about 2 million Jewish Americans to break even.
Which I think is more doable than ignoring the Muslim American population and hoping 47% of the Jewish American vote offsets the 3.5 million Muslim American vote.
Also if they have to appease the corrupt war companies that fund the party, just send the weapons to Ukraine.
I saw a poll 3~6 months ago finding israel is ranked like the 4th issue for American Jews. The overwhelming majority don’t care about it enough to change their vote for it. They certainly won’t vote for Trump over a Democrat arms embargo on israel.
That’s interesting and happy to hear that.
Considering that the KKK endorsed Trump, their only option is either voting third party or not voting if they decide not to vote Democrat.
Remember that many of those Jewish Americans are either anti-zionists or don’t care either way. Meanwhile almost every single Muslim American cares about the issue and will likely vote Democrat if they do anything but actively cooperate with genocide.
100%, Dems are throwing the election.
If just going by votes, it makes me wonder what is holding the Democrats back from getting the Islamic American voters.
It can’t be just be the war companies, they can just send those arms to Ukraine.
Hundreds of humanitarians and journalists were murdered in Gaza. That should be enough not to support them.
Israel is a country-sized military base that mostly pays for itself, and has one of the best intelligence agencies in the world (or maybe their rivals are just that bad). If Israel didn’t exist the Middle East would probably be much more united by now under the leadership of one or two regional powers instead of everyone but Iran and Syria being a US proxy.
Israel serves a geopolitical purpose destabilizing the Middle East and suppressing development of rival countries (e.g. assassinating that nuclear physicist in Iran).
Take it from Biden: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYLNCcLfIkM
A lot of Israeli money. AIPAC is just the most well known.
You can’t just look at the total numbers and %'s because not every vote has equal weight, the way the electoral college is set up and fptp elections means votes in contested states and districts count for much more than if you’re from a highly partisan area.
Have they not thought about how much worse Trump will be? They are dark skinned immigrants they will be persecuted here and he will let Israel do what ever it wants to the Palestinians.
Trump: bans Muslims from the USA as one of the first things he does as president. Muslims: he’s our guy!
What makes you think they support either genocidal candidate? If
hitlerharris wants those votes, she just has to stop supporting genocide; it’s not that hard.Unless you think demanding someone to not support genocide is too much?
Republicans: literally write “finish them” on Israeli bombs.
Lemmy.ml users: the important thing to learn here is not to vote for the more leftwing candidate. Only by giving electoral success to the most right wing party will we convince the more moderate party to move left. They will see the right win and all the polling show that right wing policies win elections and will realise that they should do the opposite of what the republicans did to gain power.
Trying to use Gaza on either candidate is stupid. Genocide is a US thing, it has nothing to do with political parties.
If anything we have more chances of seeing change once Kamala is in office than Trump.
Trying to use Gaza on either candidate is stupid. Genocide is a US thing, it has nothing to do with political parties.
So we need to abandon them entirely and either elect a new party or overthrow the state.
If anything we have more chances of seeing change once Kamala is in office than Trump.
Ah, “thoughts and prayers,” same as always.
Yes, you need to abandon both and elect a new party of overthrow the state. That’s been the solution for the last 30 years, but y’all aren’t going to do that, so forgive me for discussing actual plausible scenarios.
So I’m going to preface this by saying how I feel about the situation. I’m furious that Biden and the Democrats aren’t just… y’know, fucking stopping this shit. I’m furious that the administration isn’t doing more to end the goddamned genocide. It makes me feel sick to think that the executive branch of my country isn’t denouncing what’s happening. The Democrats are supposed to be the party for compassionate people. I consider myself to be a compassionate person, and the Democrats are absolutely failing to represent me.
I’m sure there’s some realpolitik going on there, but like, realpolitik can suck my asshole when my taxes are paying for bombs and missiles that are being used by a different country in an unjust war to kill innocent people in a genocide.
Make no mistake, I want this shit to end right the fuck now. I want Israel to fuck off back to their borders. I want the hostages to be traded, I want Palestine to be a full state in the UN with defensive treaties. I want Bibi and the people who enabled him to be tried for crimes against humanity. I want Israel and the United States to pay reparations and to foot the bill for the rebuilding of Palestinian infrastructure.
I want change. I am tired of the Democrats. Shit, I think there are a lot of people tired of the Republicans. Nobody is happy with the way out system works. I look at other countries with coalition governments and a large number of specific parties and I wish that I could have that. I would absolute love to have a party that represents my values and desires.
With all that said, I just don’t think that we will be able to enact meaningful change in 30ish days. To enact change within the confines our current system, we would need to convince tens of millions of people to vote for a candidate that truly represents them in that timeframe. Given the constricting nature of our two-party system, I think many people wouldn’t know who that is. I certainly don’t know who would represent me. It certainly wouldn’t be Jill Stein, to provide an example of a third party candidate. I’d vote for Bernie Sanders, but he’s not running for president. His election would require tens of millions to write his name on their ballots.
Many of the people who don’t feel represented by our government with regards to Palestine currently vote for the Democrats. If we were to all switch in unison and vote for someone who would truly stop this shit, then we could enact our change. I believe that there’s just no way to do that in a month.
If we try to enact change right now and fail, then we will likely end up with a violent, narcissistic rapist as the head of our government who will continue to implement blatantly christo-fascist policies. Christo-fascists do not like people of the Islamic faith, and Donald Trump has promised to wipe out Palestine if he is elected. He cannot be trusted to act according to what he has previously said (which, speaking from experience, is the fashion of all malignant narcissists who are not being treated for their PD), but there is a chance that he will follow through on his word and will speed up the genocide of the people of Palestine.
There are two primary candidates. One candidate will likely maintain the monstrous, awful, status quo. The other candidate may or may not direct the most powerful military force in the world to level Palestine and order the destruction of every man, woman, and child within its borders. The former gives the people of Palestine more time while to survive while we try to unfuck our system. It’s not a guarantee, but it’s a chance.
Earlier, I said that realpolitik can suck my asshole, and that’s what this feels like. It’s shit and I hate it and it makes me feel gross. None of this brings back the lives of those who have already died, and my choice probably wouldn’t really be appreciated by a Palestinian who is trying to survive the bombs I’m paying for. I won’t shame anyone who cannot live with themselves if they vote for Kamala Harris. People are entitled to their beliefs, and living out of compliance with them can be very harmful. However, I feel compelled to at least present an emotional argument against a vote for a 3rd party candidate (or no vote at all) in this specific situation.
I’m furious that the administration isn’t doing more to end the goddamned genocide
Biden approved the invasion of Lebanon and is sending in US troops and air support. They want this.
I’m sure there’s some realpolitik going on there, but like, realpolitik can suck my asshole when my taxes are paying for bombs and missiles that are being used by a different country in an unjust war to kill innocent people in a genocide.
Israel helps terrorize enemies of the US empire and secures the Petro-dollar.
With all that said, I just don’t think that we will be able to enact meaningful change in 30ish days. To enact change within the confines our current system, we would need to convince hundreds of millions of people to vote for a candidate that truly represents them in that timeframe. Given the constricting nature of our two-party system, I think many people wouldn’t know who that is. I certainly don’t know who would represent me. It certainly wouldn’t be Jill Stein, to provide an example of a third party candidate.
So hopes and prayers while you vote for continued genocide, got it. Your feelings don’t make the bombs lighter.
There are two primary candidates. One candidate will likely maintain the monstrous, awful, status quo. The other candidate may or may not direct the largest military force in the world to level Palestine and order the destruction of every man, woman, and child within its borders. The former gives the people of Palestine more time while to survive while we try to unfuck our system. It’s not a guarantee, but it’s a chance.
Biden has already ordered US air support and ground troops, the die is cast.
I can’t disagree with the facts presented about the positioning of US troops and the roles Israel and the US play on the geopolitical stage. This is a sick situation and my dread gets a bit deeper every day. I can’t contest that my feelings won’t do anything for the dead and the dying. I can’t ask people to do things that are contrary to their beliefs, and it’s clear that I do not have the capacity or the moral ground to affect the beliefs expressed in this thread.
Then I implore you to abandon the genocidal Biden regime. Side with humanity.
To side with the even more genocidal Trump team? What kind of crazy is this? There isn’t a third option. There’s horrifically bad and there’s even worse and you’re siding with even worse. Come back to reality, Cowbee, it misses you.
The class is holding a vote on whether to put the “slap the ugly kid in the face” guy in charge or the “kick him in the nuts” guy in charge. You’re right to say the kid should be left alone. You’re right to say there should be a third option. You’re right that there should be no slapping. You’re right that the vote is offensive. But you can’t stop the vote and you can’t stop the violence. None of us can.
But fuck you if you can’t bring yourself to say that the kid ought not to be kicked in the nuts and fuck you if you tell all the nice kids not to vote and fuck you if the kid gets kicked in the nuts because of your idiot intervention that only ever talks about the slappers and gives the kick-in-the-nuts crowd a free pass.
Not voting just lets the “kick him in the nuts” guy win every time, which is why the “slap him in the face” guy came up with the slapping policy in the first place.
To side with the even more genocidal Trump team? What kind of crazy is this? There isn’t a third option. There’s horrifically bad and there’s even worse and you’re siding with even worse. Come back to reality, Cowbee, it misses you.
Of course not Trump, he’s just as genocidal as Harris, Walz, and Biden. You’re siding with genocide, that’s unacceptable.
The class is holding a vote on whether to put the “slap the ugly kid in the face” guy in charge or the “kick him in the nuts” guy in charge. You’re right to say the kid should be left alone. You’re right to say there should be a third option. You’re right that there should be no slapping. You’re right that the vote is offensive. But you can’t stop the vote and you can’t stop the violence. None of us can.
Pure defeatism, if we have to torture this poor kid then it’s best to tell the teacher to fuck off.
But fuck you if you can’t bring yourself to say that the kid ought not to be kicked in the nuts and fuck you if you tell all the nice kids not to vote and fuck you if the kid gets kicked in the nuts because of your idiot intervention that only ever talks about the slappers and gives the kick-in-the-nuts crowd a free pass.
You are still under the grand delusion that the GOP is worse than the DNC on the issue of genocide. They aren’t, this is a bipartisan effort. Biden has even sent in the troops and Walz said Israel needs to expand.
Not voting just lets the “kick him in the nuts” guy win every time, which is why the “slap him in the face” guy came up with the slapping policy in the first place.
No, this is so far removed from why America supports the genocidal settler-colonial entity. America supports Israel because Israel is a rabid dog on a leash that America uses to terrorize the Middle East and secure the Petro-Dollar, which it uses as the global standard to have a monopoly on Financial Capital, enslaving the Global South with predatory IMF loans.
Please, do some actual thinking.
Dawg they’re wiping out Palestine now, under a Democrat. Acting like there’s any daylight between Trump and Kamala in terms of what they actually do is just liberal cope.
Painting a rainbow on the side of the bomb doesn’t make it any less of a bomb.
I apologize, I was rushed and didn’t adequately explain myself. I want to restate the premise on which I made my comment. Israel has a large military and is using it to kill Palestinians right now. I absolutely agree with that. Israel is using weapons provided by the United States, and the transfer of those weapons was authorized by the current Democratic administration. No disagreements there.
My fear is that the military of the United States will become directly involved in the Palestinian genocide. I am afraid of the much larger and better armed US military actively leveling grid squares filled with Palestinian civilians with missiles. What is happening right now is already monstrous. I want the United States to divest and cease its involvement in this genocide at the bare minimum. I want the United States to directly oppose Israel and stop the genocide, using force if necessary. I very much do not want the United States’ involvement to increase. If Donald Trump is elected, an increase in the use of force against Palestine may happen. That is my argument. I absolutely do not believe that the current administration is doing the right thing here. I hate it, and I want it to stop. I just also don’t want it to get worse.
an increase in the use of force against Palestine may happen
It may also happen under Kamala.
All of this “Kamala might be better than Biden or Trump on genocide” is purely based on vibes and not based on anything she’s ever done or said.
Trump has openly said he would end the war in Ukraine swiftly by giving Ukraine to Putin, his good friend. Ignorance is bliss i guess, at least Kamala isn’t spewing Russian propaganda
It’s based on things the republicans have done and said.
And they would be wiping palestine AND ukraine under a Republican, whats your point. It’s shitty to have to pick a lesser evil and americans should protest having to do that, but let’s not pretend they are the same evil.
Trump openly admits he would be doing far far worse
Downvoted for obvious truths. Must be a tankie instance.
If anything we have more chances of seeing change once Kamala is in office than Trump.
This isn’t even hopium it’s just straight up delusional.
Do you know what “if anything” means in this context? It means we are unlikely to see a difference between parties, if we do (which we wont) it would be more likely to be on the democrat side.
Youre delusional to think a Trump admin wouldn’t be far worse for Gaza and Ukraine
She is part of the current administration and has not been against all the weapons we send israel to kill innocent people. If anything we had peace during the trump administration. The proof is in the pudding!
The proof is indeed in the pudding, Trump spent 4 years disbanding state, federal and international protections, as well as getting cozy with North Korea, China and Russia. Topping it all off with an attempt to overthrow the government, stalling the succeeding administration
Then he openly admits he would add Ukraine to the list of US supported genocides. You aren’t making the argument you think you’re making.
