This meme changed zero minds but made a few vegans feel pretty special.
This meme really only makes sense in response to something. I’ve definitely heard many non-vegans complain that a vegan diet is restricting. Most of those people do only eat like 3 veggies ever.
That being said, it’s a meme, not a philosophical treatise.
Maybe not this single one, but if there’s a running discourse that shows veganism is perfectly common and normal, more people are willing to become vegan. This is part of the nudges we humans are prone to.
Well I mean I can imagine on living without meat. But I can’t life without cheese. I mean what meaning does life have if you can’t eat cheese?
I occasionally think about all the gametes I’m eating in vegetables. Other than rocky mountain oysters, I’m rarely eating sperm or ova when eating meat. There’s roe occasionally, I suppose.
Vegans aren’t doing this to feel special, stop projecting. We just want people to stop harming animals and the only way to do that is to keep talking about it. Of all the responses vegans get, this is the most annoying one to hear.
I find vegans tend to have less empathy for their fellow man than we meat-eaters have for animals. It comes across as smug (and let’s be honest, it’s less insulting to call them smug).
You do realise that meat-eaters eat animals that were killed for them to be eaten? Please explain to me how this is more empathetic than posting a meme that triggered some meat-eaters.
You do realise that meat-eaters eat animals that were killed for them to be eaten?
Yup. Animals that lived lives in the first place because they were going to be eaten. Why should anyone have an ethical problem with that? But honestly, I don’t think it’s just “were killed for them to be eaten” to you. I live in a deer population control zone. Hunters have a critical task of preventing deer overpopulation from devastating the area. Got any problems with the venison steak I had last week from deer that HAD to be killed?
Please explain to me how this is more empathetic than posting a meme that triggered some meat-eaters.
More empathetic? Because I’m not an anti-natalist. I know those animals would not have been born if not farmed. This is not a vacuum choice between “cows die” and “cows live”. It never was, and it never will be. I know that most of them live better lives and die easier than their non-domesticated counterparts. Ever watch a cat play with a mouse, slowly torturing it to death? My local farm (plants) have animals that do exactly that every day with the goal of killing off pest animals so they won’t destroy the harvest (a single pest animal like a squirrel can destroy 40 or 50 tomatoes in an hour).
Let’s go another way. Statistically, odds are pretty good that my death will be 100x worse than how a farm animal dies. So no, me being ok that death exists in our world is NOT a lack of empathy. You don’t get to make up my morals for me. The way I see it, giving farm animals a peaceful life is the height of empathy… so I look at you (your words) “triggering some meat-eaters” and note that statistically many of the people you go out of your way to “trigger” are going to end up dying long and painful battles with cancer. My view of empathy? Give them just a LITTLE bit more bloody peace while they’re alive.
Here’s my empathy. I fight for animal right laws. I strongly supported the free range chicken law that just passed in my state. I reject unethical and inhumane ways of treating and killing animals. But I’m not uneducated. I know how farming works. I know how the delicate relationship between agriculture and horticulture, while not perfect, leads to less death and less environmental impact than EITHER side of those alone.
Vegans are letting some crayola-colored dream be the enemy of good. And it’s nothing more than flat-earther, tinfoil, antivax gibberish to me. And I don’t care as long as they leave people alone.
That is the most insane sentence I’ve read. Vegans aren’t slaughtering and eating you. What empathy do you have for animals you choose to exploit and kill for taste preference? Vegans want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn’t mean we don’t care about those people, but it does usually mean that we have to argue with them.
That is the most insane sentence I’ve read. Vegans aren’t slaughtering and eating you
Do you actually think you’ll change anyone’s mind by calling their well-conceived ethical frameworks “insane”? THIS is why you get the reputation of being smug. My life’s knowledge, my grasp of philosophy, it’s all worthless shit to you because I am morally convinced that it’s acceptable to kill and eat animals. It doesn’t matter why I’m convinced that (and I’ve learned the hard way it’s not worth anyone’s time to discuss the reasoning or the why’s). I am beneith you.
Calling vegans “smug” is nicer than calling them dehumanizing and ignorant.
What empathy do you have for animals you choose to exploit and kill for taste preference?
As I said in another comment, proselytizing zealous vegans like to strawman non-vegans as all sitting there with a piece of bloody steak on a fork saying “I know some poor cute fluffy animal died a painful death for this but I LOVE the taste of murder”. That’s not us. If you can’t see that, perhaps the first step in your recovery is to actually start to.
Vegans want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn’t mean we don’t care about those people, but it does usually mean that we have to argue with them.
As do I, and I have taken a lot of abuse from vegans over the years standing up to those bad things.
And more… That is Word. For. Word. what that guy on the subway says about my gay friends divorcing each other. Word. For. Bloody. Word.
I didnt call your ethical framework insane, I’m talking about your statement saying you have more empathy for animals than vegans have for you, which is beyond ridiculous to say. You literally strawmanned my argument, I didn’t appeal to cuteness or scary words. It’s a logical question that you just didnt answer. Taking ‘abuse’ from vegans… maybe we are just convinced its morally okay, or does being a victim not feel good to you? As for the last thing you said, I have literally no idea what you are talking about.
I didnt call your ethical framework insane, I’m talking about your statement saying you have more empathy for animals than vegans have for you, which is beyond ridiculous to say
Have you ever heard of the personal incredulity fallacy?
You literally strawmanned my argument
Did I? What exactly do you think my ethical framework is if it’s not either ignorance or lack of empathy… when you directly accused me of having less empathy for animals?
It’s a logical question that you just didnt answer.
Where do you ever ask me a question that I didn’t answer?
Taking ‘abuse’ from vegans… maybe we are just convinced its morally okay, or does being a victim not feel good to you?
Rephrase please, so I don’t get you even more on the defensive by answering the wrong question. Because this one came across as a softball one that you would not like the answer to.
As for the last thing you said, I have literally no idea what you are talking about.
I have sat through a “discussion” where several of my gay friends were told “we want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn’t mean we don’t care about those people”. I have a friend who was kicked out of his home at 15 to almost that exact phrasing. Preachy Vegans come across EXACTLY like that to everyone else in the world. When I look a preachy vegan in the eyes, I see that bigoted Catholic dad who kicks his kid to the curb.
Do you have kids? What would you do if one of them came out non-vegan to you? What if they decided their calling was ranching? I’ve got a cousin who got a degree in dairy farming and he LOVES it.
No I heard your sentence and called it stupid and I still can’t believe you are going with it because it is laughable. Go on, explain how you are nicer to animals more than vegans are to you. You are still alive so we haven’t eaten you yet… Do you kill and eat people you care about?
You said you are taking ‘abuse’ from vegans in the same comment you said you see nothing wrong with killing and eating someone. I can’t take your victim point seriously when you refuse to acknowledge the feelings of your victims.
As your your gay friends thing, its a false equivalence despite what the words are. Gay people don’t have victims. Nonvegans do. I’m defining “bad thing” as an action that harms others. Being gay is also not a choice and is nothing like being nonvegan. You aren’t a fucking minority for being nonvegan. What a dumbass insulting argument.
Is it vegan to sit on that high horse?
Vegans will literally eat slave labor picked Avocados but still think the best way they can help reduce comodification is by yelling at other people online, instead of not eating the slave avocados.
Are you a farm animal when you shit on the environment?
The horse is only high because it got into the special plants.
I know why people think vegans do this for some smug reason, but we don’t, I promise you. We just want people to change and stop hurting animals, and the only way to do that is to keep talking about it.
Funny thing is that many of us feel the same way about vegans. We just want them to change and stop getting in our face like street preachers with what we consider to be flawed logic and more flawed ethical philosophy.
And the only way to do that is to keep standing up to vegans the same way we do JWs. It sucks because it’s exhausting and we just want to be left alone.
But the difference between vegans and JWs is that the issue vegans have is real, and we have more than enough evidence for our case. Religion is a personal choice, but actions that harm others are not. You can call it preachy but that’s how things get better.
JW’s would say the exact same thing to vegans. YOU think the issue is real, but all the rest of us see is you throwing around junk science and fabricated propaganda. Ultimately, you think you can force your morals on us because you think you’re better than us… and think we have no right to do the same to you. That’s where the “smug” part comes in. You know we’ve thought about the ethics. You know we might even be more educated in right-and-wrong than you are. But you don’t care what our conclusions were as long as they differ from yours. You’re infallible on that topic, are you?
Religion is a personal choice, but actions that harm others are not
You don’t think what you’re doing is harming people? Or is it that you don’t care because your ethics are more valuable than others are? Proslytization hurts people. Which means preachy vegans hurt people.
You can call it preachy but that’s how things get better.
You’re pushing people AWAY from veganism. I’ve been on a constant mission to improve my footprint, but every time I end up in an argument with a vegan I end up so exhausted by their zealous crap that I start questioning whether it’s worth all the effort I put into MY part of the environment. It literally just makes me want to go out of my way and eat a steak, but that’s not much better (but it is a little better) than what preachy vegans do.
junk science and fabricated propaganda… how? Besides the scientific consensus on the benefits of plant based diets on the environment, veganism is an ethical stance to stop unnecessary harm towards sentient beings. The only science we need is to prove that plant based diets do that, and they do. No I don’t accept your conclusion until you stop violating the rights of others.
Proslytization hurts people.
Hmmm killing vs proselytization, which is worse? We are asking you to stop physically harming others then you call it abuse, its silly.
Also I’m definitely not pushing people away from veganism, I’ve been at this for a long time and the truth is you weren’t going to change your mind. I’m just providing opposition to your points for everyone who reads this thread.
junk science and fabricated propaganda… how?
Different discussion, and feel free to read my MANY other comments on this thread if you’re interested in my take on that. I said that’s how we see the vegan side. If you want to cover whether that opinion is accurate, my answer here is going to be RTFM in the other comments, sorry.
Besides the scientific consensus on the benefits of plant based diets on the environment, veganism is an ethical stance to stop unnecessary harm towards sentient beings
That “scientific consensus” has tons of asterisks. The consensus is that reducing global meat intake would have an environmental impact in a vacuum. And I agree with that. And as long as it’s not too many people “doing their part” by going vegan, go ahead. And as long as you don’t think that’s the ONLY thing you should be doing.
And no, veganism is not “an ethical stance to stop unnecessary harm towards sentient beings”, it’s just not eating animal products. And here’s how I can show that. If someone handed you a shotgun and said “this deer has to die; feel free to eat it. If you don’t kill it, 5 more animals will starve to death” what would you do? Trolley problem. If your stance is actually stopping unnecessary harm, you kill the deer and you feast. You kill the deer because it saves lives, and you feast because at least the death served a purpose directly.
If you don’t do those things, you’re not doing what you can to “stop unnecessary harm towards sentient beings”. But if you DO do those things, you’re not a vegan. Words have meanings, and vegan doesn’t mean “stop unnecessary harm”, it means “won’t eat animal products at all costs”.
The only science we need is to prove that plant based diets do that, and they do
I disagree. I think too much veganism, especially preachy veganism, costs more lives and causes more suffering. I see what overpopulation does every day, and I’ve seen many times how many animals die on a farm.
Also I’m definitely not pushing people away from veganism, I’ve been at this for a long time and the truth is you weren’t going to change your mind
No, I wasn’t going to change my mind because I’m educated on this matter and have been dealing with smug vegans for a decade now. Unlike a lot of dupes you might talk to, I have a background in philosophy and ethics, as well as at least some knowledge about agriculture and how farming actually works. But my wife toyed with veganism until she got annoyed by someone not very much unlike you. It led her to stop. She un-quit red meat, which was a huge win to me.
But think about this. Anyone on the fence who reads this comment chain is going to see the preachy vegans overreaching with what arguments they have and come to the not-quite-true conclusion that NONE of what you’re saying is accurate. Which is funny because we SHOULD still be trying to improve our overall relationship with food.
I’m just providing opposition to your points for everyone who reads this thread
Actually, quite the opposite. This all started because you insisted vegans aren’t smug. Readers can come to their own conclusions. At this point, I’m convinced any non-vegan reader will agree that you came across similar to a JW.
I’m not even going to argue science with you at this point because you are so far off of what even nonvegans who care about the environment usually agree on and you clearly have an issue believing or understanding research.
Your trolly problem point is a nothing sandwich. Vegans get a win win in that refusal to eat animal products results in overall harm reduction in our real world. So it doesn’t matter whether or not they are rights-based or utilitarian vegans.
You can deny evidence and think what you want but now you are really just arguing for your sake instead of being honest with yourself.
If you are so into philosophy you would probably know your anecdote about your wife means nothing to me.
Also YOU see preachy vegans, stop assuming what others see. I’ve seen more people go vegan and its better evidence for this than your wife anecdote.
Again, JWs preach something no one sees. Animal agriculture is a real thing and its a false equivalence, Mr. Philosophy
I’m not sure you can even have one without the other tbh
Man, here’s the thing. I can’t digest fermenting ogliosaccharides, disaccharides, monosaccharides and polyols.
So no beans, mushrooms, onions garlic wheat rye or barley, apples, apricots, most berries, etc etc etc.
I also lead a “fairly” active lifestyle against my own wishes. So where does my protein come from? Meat. Chicken, eggs, and hard tofu.
If I cut meat from my diet, I’m eating three meals a day of hard tofu. What even is the point of life, then?
I’ve been vegetarian for around 3 years after I discovered how badly we treat animals, and also by connecting meat and animals in my mind… Realising that the same pets that I adore are the steaks that I ate. But still, I went vegetarian because I could. I could manage to find time in my life to change my diet and to make sure I had no deficiency in nutrients… So don’t be too hard on yourself mate, your situation is totally understandable! Actually I strongly disagree with people saying that anyone could become vegetarian if they wanted to, it takes a lot of thought, trial and error, time and obviously a lack of allergies… Saying that, anyone can fight for animal rights in their own way, being vegetarian is only one of the many tools we have…
I’m grateful that you say that (not OP). So many vegetarians/vegans are convinced anyone who isn’t vegan hates animals, or is at least “worse” than them on some magical scale they came up with.
I fought for my state’s free range chicken law, but I wouldn’t fight for bans of consuming chicken or eggs. I would love a law that banned chick-killing (the practice of immediately killing all newborn chickens of the “wrong gender” when reselling chickens to farms or growing egg breeds). I’m sure they’d find a way around that. Despite that, I’ll still eat chicken.
Same here. I’m nominally vegan but coeliac disease limits most meal options - I’ll still glady eat meat if available.
"You ever plow a field? To plant the quinoa or sorghum or whatever the hell it is you eat. You kill everything on the ground and under it.
You kill every snake, every frog, every mouse, mole, vole, worm, quail… you kill them all.
So, I guess the only real question is: how cute does an animal have to be before you care if it dies to feed you?”
-John Dutton
Cows and chickens gotta eat too, and that food is coming from fields as well.
By reducing meat consumption also way less critters will end up dying.I’m not here to reduce my meat consumption. It’s at the perfect level.
You’re free to do whatever you want, all I meant is decreasing meat consumption not only will reduce the amount of big animals killed, but also the number of smaller ones. Growing a cow takes a whole lot of grain.
Are you from a farm town?
A supermajority of animal feed comes from the waste product of crops we that were being grown anyway, or grass from a fallow field that needs to be harvested anyway (not enough the latter due to logistics, but my local farms all do). That whole “8 to 1” calorie to cow thing leaves out the part that it’s 8 calories of landfill material to make 1 calorie of beef. Nobody has an “animal only” corn field. And nobody is using harsh animal-killing chemicals on the fallow fields.
And cows are still being fed things whether you eat them or not. We need their manure and it’s overall better for the environment than synthetic fertilizer. Without some form of fertilizer, we need much more farmland, which means more animals killed per calorie. All compared to 700,000 calories in a cow.
Unfortunately, nobody has ever demonstrated in a defensible manner that a horticulture-only scenario would be anywhere near as efficient on animal lives as what we have now. It’s one thing to cut animal intake 10%, entirely another to try to rebuild our farming industry without animals.
A supermajority of animal feed comes from the waste product of crops we that were being grown anyway
According to the Alberta Cattle Feeders Association, 80% of the feed is composed of corn. According to the USDA itself half the corn grown in the US was used for animal feed, and 78% of the world’s soy production is made for animal feed.
Is the waste product of corn and soy included in these numbers?The ACFA link you sent doesn’t seem to say what you referenced, that I could find. In fact, I’ve never seen anyone say that cattle is fed decent corn in any stage of life except “finishing” (which reduced gaminess), and even then 80% is the high end.
A more accurate number is that 86% of a an animal’s diet is human-inedible (see below), roughages and byproducts. That number CAN easily be moved closer to 100% at the cost of gaminess, but I have had beef that was not “finished” and it was ok. I’m definitely ok sacrificing a little corn to get the improved flavor.
Note the 86%? That’s animals in general. If you focus on cows, that number crosses to 90%. And if we’re talking all non-vegan products, MILK (for those not allergic to it like myself) is incredibly nitritious compared to the total potential human nutritional value of a dairy cow’s intake.
Is the waste product of corn and soy included in these numbers?
Since I cannot seem to trace your references, I’m not sure. But it’s covered in the numbers I linked. Every single reputable or researched reference I have ever seen on the topic (as well as the actual cattle ranches I’ve lived near) put a bare minimum of 85% of a cow’s diet as inedibles. And why would it be anything else? Those inedibles are dramatically cheaper than buying edible corn.
…and stepping back, I’d like to point out that we’re discussing the paltry percent of some of the least nutritionally valuable crops in the world are eaten by cows, who by any honest analysis produces one of the most nutrious staple foods known to man.
The figure was almost by the middle of the page, search for the string “AT THE FEEDLOT, CATTLE ARE FED A DIET OF 80% GRAIN AND 20% FORAGES. (SILAGE AND HAY)”, on the section “Start weight, finish weight”.
As for the others:
Here’s the USDA source: https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn-and-other-feed-grains/feed-grains-sector-at-a-glance/:Corn is a major component of livestock feed. Feed use, a derived demand, is closely related to the number of animals (cattle, hogs, and poultry) that are fed corn and typically accounts for about 40 percent of total domestic corn use. The amount of corn used for feed also depends on the crop’s supply and price, the amount of supplemental ingredients used in feed rations, and the supplies and prices of competing ingredients.
And regarding soy, here’s from the WWF: https://wwf.panda.org/discover/our_focus/food_practice/sustainable_production/soy/
We may not eat large quantities of soy directly, but the animals we eat, or from which we consume eggs or milk, do. In fact, almost 80% of the world’s soybean crop is fed to livestock, especially for beef, chicken, egg and dairy production (milk, cheeses, butter, yogurt, etc).
You obviously know way more than me about the subject but you gotta excuse me for taking anything from a website called “sacredcow” talking about the “plant-based industry” at the top of the page with a grain of salt, everything else I’ve seen online points to animal farming being incredible inefficient and a huge contributor to global warming and water waste.
What three animals everyone else eating? We’ve got chickens, ducks, pigeons, quail, geese, cranes, turkeys, cows, deer, elk, moose, antelope, armadillo, beaver, bobcats, coyotes, foxes, lynx, bear, bison, caribou, goat, musk ox, pronghorn, sheep, muskrat, opossums, pigs, porcupine, rabbits, squirrels, pheasant, chukars, and tons of tasty insects to choose from.
You forgot the many difference species of fish/creatures-of-the-sea.
I didn’t even go there because of so many tasty options to list!
Tell me with a straight face that you eat a fucking squirrel
THAT’S the one you take issue with? Lol
In not sure anyone is eating muskrat or opossum outside West Virginia mountain hermits, people born before 1890, and anyone who self identifies as a trapper.
There’s parts of the Florida Panhandle where opossum is a serious delicacy. They even have a festival in August.
Huh. Weird.
Muskrat was classified as non meat for Catholics, so some people ate it, but anyone I know who did is dead now.
Well squirrel was the funniest one within that context imo.
Eat the elongated muskrat!
Squirrel are fantastic.
They’re the least “gamey” out of most small game, less so than rabbit, and taste something like leaner dark meat chicken.
Awesome in a crockpot substituted for chicken in most recipes. Can fancy up squirrel with a Sous vide to make squirrel confit bánh mì tacos, or keep it old school and make squirrel pot pie.
I grew up eating squirrel. Its very common in rural areas,
Dove, too.
Knew someone that tried to eat possum once, said it was the nastiest, greasiest thing he’d ever tried.
You have to catch the possum first, then corn feed it for about a month or two to get the nasty taste out of the meat before you eat it. So basically, turn it into a pet, then kill and eat it.
Is… is that actually true, or are you having a laugh? I genuinely cant tell.
but if its true, thats an awful lot of effort to make something nasty taste decent.
Its how they did it for the Possum Festival in Florida when I was growing up, so its a thing, But I can’t imagine anyone would do it just cause they like possum though.
I’m from Kentucky, friend. I’ve definitely had a squirrel or two in my day.
Tennessee checking in - I’ve had squirrel as well.
I used to live in rural Kansas, so yes
To get 80k they’re obviously counting variations. How many breeds of cow have I eaten?
I don’t have access to that many animals, nor that many plants. Maybe 5 animals and about two dozen plants.
Pls don’t eat fox or lynx, they cute.
I mean tbf, the majority of Americans don’t eat anything aside from chicken pork and beef, with the occasional turkey
True, but the majority of Americans also eat only a handful of plants, especially when counting brassica as one plant.
That’s only true because turkeys aren’t that good.
Turkey is amazing when done right. Though I guess that can be said for damn near anything.
Fucking heretic.
I resent that. I eat more than 3 species of animals.
Chicken, Beef, Pork, Fish/Seafood… What am I missing from my diet? Reptile?
Lamb, my dude.
Get some lamb shanks braised with rosemary, mint, and onions.
Come to think of it, is lamb a popular meat in the US? Here in Aus, its about on par with pork in popularity, after beef, then chicken.
Kangaroo is available in supermarkets, but its only about 5% as popular as beef.
Damn I forgot about lamb, goat, and their cloven hoofed friends like deer
Lamb is readily available in the US, but we (excluding farmers and active hunters) tend to eat it selectively like duck or veal as a delicacy or a meal for a special occasion. Normal everyday people don’t eat lamb, veal, or duck when cheaper chicken, beef, fish, etc is available. Americans have an aversion to eating cute animals.
Wild game: throw in rabbit, deer (or elk), buffalo, etc. Alligator is also quite tasty. Sheep, goat (man, nothing beats curry goat, let me tell you).
Bear is delicious
Really? They have almost every hallmark of a bad-tasting meat. Highly muscular, non-herbivorous diet, etc.
I mean, I’d still try it.
I’ve eaten bear. It’s gamey as hell. Tried it multiple times and prepared multiple ways. The cooking methods that make it the most palatable are the ones that take forever like slow roasting and smoking. It’s a very tough meat so it takes a lot of tenderizing methods. Large predator meat is typically not great eating.
Before everyone jumps on me for being a hunter, I am a native Ojibwe. I don’t want to dox myself by revealing much more than that.
You can eat both vegetables and dead animals at the same time. We call that a stew.
I call it a balanced diet… Who the fuck is exclusivly eating meat?
Jordan Peterson? That is if the has a few moments inbetween crying on cam in his messy room.
No idea who that is, but I bet he has Gout.
This guy fucks his own mom!
I’m not even arguing with you, you’re just resorting to name calling, can you not see when someone isn’t arguing with you?. Plus what makes you think im a guy
“DiD yOu jUsT aSsuME mY gEndEr?!” Bloved madman asked, smirking to himself.
Yeah bro, because you would only pretent not to be to try to play a gotcha.
Let’s call it an educated guess based on your lack of education.
What do you want from me? Are you going to stalk me all over Lemmy?
Haha. OK, if it makes you feel better.
Why are you trying to cyber bully me, I’m 12.
Why are you trying to cyber bully me, I’m 12.
Why were you downvoted? You’re comment is absolutely salient
If you ask every vegan I’ve ever had a discussion with, that would be every non-vegan in the world.
Personally the only people I dislike for eating meat are the kind who have it in literally every meal in excessive amounts
I also think people should have to kill the animals themselves if they want to eat them rather than be disconnected by buying them in stores to be morally consistent but that’s just me
I think if you’re going to post things on the internet you should have to build the device you’re using to do that yourself. And write all the software needed to do it.
Or maybe it’s silly to put arbitrary moral requirements on other people. If you think it’s wrong to eat meat, sure whatever. But trying to set some arbitrary goalpost that you know isn’t feasible to make it so something you already think is morally wrong to be extra morally wrong because it’s hypocritical or whatever is kinda weird.
Not sure this is the best example becauss there is a similar issue there of phones being made via basically slavery, I hypocritically say typing on my Samsung phone (though looking into buying a fairphone next which is the best I can possibly do while still having the practical neccesity of a smartphone)
The difference there is though that I would have no moral problem with building the phone and writing the software, physically capable or not. I’m not saying people should need to physically be able to kill the animal all by themselves, just that they should be morally able to, if given a gun pointed at an animal’s head, pull the trigger and be ok with that decision
My point is not to be the gatekeeper of what’s right and wrong, my point is to force people to make those decisions themselves and to be morally consistent. If people are ok with killing animals then that’s fine by me, the bit I don’t like is the level of abstraction we have that means people don’t have to think about the consequences of their choices too deeply
I actually hate how distanced we are from meat in general, and agree that in general people should have the opportunity to kill their own meat.
That said, here’s a real counterpoint. PTSD. I know people with severe PTSD from witnessing some unspeakable brutality like the violent death of a loved one or friend. Nobody should ever ask a PTSD patient to kill an animal themselves. Which is the problem with the whole “have to kill animals” thing entirely. Too many people have some traumatic event.
Honestly, I think that’s where a lot of vegans come from. I have an extended family member who snapped after watching one of those vegan documentaries. She was weird before then for reasons none of us really knew, but she starved herself until she was hospitalized for malnutrition and her hair started falling out. When she got out, she wouldn’t eat meat anymore and wouldn’t talk about it. She isn’t a “vegetarian” in any good meaning of the word, constantly struggling with nutritional issues and avoiding meat entirely because she can’t bring herself to eat it. It has become a quiet ethical thing to her, but it’s more than that.
So IMO, we gotta cure PTSD before making people kill. I DO think we should offer “kill and butcher your own meat” as an elective field trip in school. I got to visit my first farm in middle-school and it really helped give me a balanced view of the world of food. Even if it was just a chicken, if I could’ve killed my own, cleaned it, and cooked it, it would’ve really rounded out my head on the topic back then.
I think if you’re going to get PTSD from killing an animal then you shouldn’t eat meat. If the act is so traumatising for someone then clearly they have some kind of conflict about it.
If you already have PTSD fine those people get a pass don’t want to cause more harm but that’s an incredibly small subset of people
I don’t think people who are incapable of killing an animal (mentally not physically) should be allowed to eat said animals
I’m a vegetarian and am perfectly healthy, on the higher side of BMI, regularly go to the gym and have above average muscle mass so the argument that you can’t get the nutrients you need is bullshit. I’m sorry about your family member though that sounds like a full blown eating disorder, not veganism
I think if you’re going to get PTSD from killing an animal then you shouldn’t eat meat
PTSD is a reaction to trauma, not a measurement for whether something is ethical. I have a MASSIVE problem with that idea. Sounds like this isn’t about anything rational, just an excuse to discourage people from eating meat.
And PTSD is often about a situation and not just something in that situation. You can see a dead body without getting PTSD, but if it’s your best friend hanging from a rafter, a little different. Ditto with animals. I know at least one person (alluded above or elsewhere) who got PTSD by being very impressionable and young and watching very specific documentaries about animals dying on a day she was also sick. I’m sure I could come up with an animal-kill scenario that would give most who experienced it PTSD. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t eat meat if you can. There’s almost certainly people out there who has gotten PTSD that relates or triggers by something plant-based.
And how exactly can you confirm which people do or do not already have PTSD? It’s one of the most underreported disorders, and in certain circles (including those with a high rate of severe PTSD) stigmatized.
I don’t think people who are incapable of killing an animal (mentally not physically) should be allowed to eat said animals
Do you agree this extends to plants? I am incapable of growing plants because I have a common HFA symptom (despite not having HFA) that things like dirt and paint drive me into a panic. My wife does all the gardening in my family because I can’t grow a tomato. By your logic, I should ONLY eat meat (as I do not have a problem killing an animal, though I’m not sure whether or not I could butcher one based on the same reasons I can’t grow vegetables).
I’m a vegetarian and am perfectly healthy, on the higher side of BMI, regularly go to the gym and have above average muscle mass so the argument that you can’t get the nutrients you need is bullshit
I really wish you’d leave the reddit 'tude at the door. I’m trying to treat you like you’re an intelligent person, but your reply to me pointing out that some vegetarians/vegans have irreperable nutrition issues is that it’s bullshit. Is it your opinion taht anyone who even lazily tries a non-meat diet is automatically 100% healthy? Is it your opinion that you can prove ALL humans can be healthy on a vegan diet, even those who have intolerances to common staples of said diet?
Also, more directly, is it your opinion that every person with a high BMI that goes to the gym and has muscle mass is automatically healthy? That seems like a severe underrepresentation of health. There are real long-term risks of hair loss, weak bones, muscle wasting, skin rashes, hypothyroidism, and anemia in vegan diets as well as an elevated risk of severe strokes. Ask any honest nutritionist and the claim that we actually know enough about nutrition to zero out those risks is nonsense. Claims that veganism is 100% healthy is similar to claims that vaping is 100% safe. In both, there is an unspoken “if done right” AND an unspoken “we think, and except a few studies we don’t personally accept yet”.
I don’t care for debate so I’m just gonna share this tofu stir-fry recipe I like. I sub gochujang for the sambal oelek and skip the peanut garnish
This is the way
See, that’s what I’m talking about. I’m saving that :D
I’ve never heard of sambal in my life, much less gochujang, but I guess we’re going on an adventure.
You had me until skipping peanuts.
Okay, but what if nut allergy :(
Its hard out here, being a vegan allergic to nuts.
now that’s what i call praxis
There’s more than three affordable animals lmao. Even if you count fish as one you still have crawfish, shrimp, fish, beef, chicken, pork, lamb, venison, turkey, etc. This also doesn’t even account for the million ways to prepare the meats
There is even a difference from breed to breed: https://www.elwooddogmeat.com/
Never count fish as one! That’s such a disservice to fish. Salmon, tuna, red snapper, swordfish, catfish, they are all delicious in their own way and have unique textures. And don’t forget scallops and other delicious mollusks!
I was going for the cheap angle, which is why I left out scallops. I like fish, except tuna, can’t stand tuna for some reason.
Moose are almost free, except the $2 bullet.
Beef/lamb/pork/chicken/seafood eater 4 life.
I eat meat AND vegetables
All these tasty meats and people decide to eat what the food eats.
All of these ways to be less cruel to other lifeforms and people decide to cause suffering out of ignorance.
A lot of people in the comments can’t seem to make the distinction between what they have been fed since they were little and that they are used to, and what is good, or tastes good.
Most people who eat meat also eat some subset of vegetables and know they like/hate some other subset of vegetables.
The human body loves getting addicted to the unhealthy sugar carbs found in some plants, but our taste buds do tend to have a healthier long-term relationship with the umami balance you get more easily from meats and seafoods.
My comment was more about the knee-jerk reaction to new ideas and new ways of looking at things you may think you are already familiar with.
Well, yes. It’s doubly true with food because our tastebuds tend towards liking the foods we are used to eating.
This can only be because you probably have no idea how to cook and always eat and buy the same dishes and ingredients all the time. Otherwise I have no idea how you would arrive at that conclusion.
…well, I did audit a culinary program when my wife took it. I have restauranteers in my family. I could probably survive in a small restaurant kitchen. But I guess I don’t know how to cook :)
(fixed that part of my reply was to the wrong comment)
As for umami, it is the most stable flavor profile. You can get umami outside of meat, but like the protein you get out of meat, it requires a tremendous amount of effort and processing. And even then, my favorite way of making tofu involves just a little bit of bacon fat. And after I eat an incredible plate of falafal, I still want a nice cut of beef on the main plate.
I’ve probably eaten a well-above-average variety of meals from almost every culture (in some cases, blessed with the chance to eat in the country in question)… and yet, as enjoyable as the vegan ones are they are at best a shadow of themselves. The “not fake meat” ones are far better, but I rate food on quality. If “A+B” is simply a better meal than “A”, then that speaks volumes. Most vegan or meatless meals are “A”, and adding “B” elevates them. “B” usually happens to be an animal product.
Now IF I had some sort of moral or religious requirement to avoid meat, there are "A"s that would be good enough. I’ve had some Indian coworkers wow me with some of their meat-free food. But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing, so I have to admit that the best Samosa I’ve had was lamb and not veggie.
Sorry, I am not convinced. Someone who can’t find umami flavour in plant based food easily isn’t a good cook. You perhaps reach a satisfying result when you stay in your area of expertise, which is cooking meat based dishes. That might make your job a cook, but it certainly does not make you good at it.
But I ethically feel that eating meat is a good thing
I am very interested in how you argue it’s “ethically good” to breed lifeforms just to have them suffer and then eat them.
I kinda hoped moving away from reddit would lead to less “you hold a different view than me so you must be an absolute idiot”. I suppose I’m sorely disappointed.
I never called you an idiot or even implied anything like that.
Re-read your previous comment and try to consider why I might have taken it that way. Otherwise, have a great day.
ok vegan
I mean I think it’s pretty telling that there are lots of plant based versions of meat based food, but not the other way around. Nobody is trying to replicate the taste of salads in meat form
Probably because there’s not really an ethical concern over eating (most) plants. You’re making a false equivalence.
I would say that’s not really true. Of course there’s ethical concerns about eating most plants, regardless of whether a specific person holds those concerns or not. Eating local has been an important ethical push since before veganism ever took the spotlight. In my state, it’s always been about “eat local, save the environment” and “eat local, support our farmers”. Always.
I grew up knowing that a local clam chowder was simply the right option over getting corn shipped in from Idaho. We have some local corn farmers and I’ll buy a bag every year at harvest time, but otherwise I don’t eat corn.
In return, you better believe people DO have local-food recipes that try to replicate non-local foods. We do curries of local veg instead of traditional veg (despite the presence of Asian markets), etc etc.
It’s just that it’s easier to make a good and balanced meal without “Faking it” when that meal contains meat.
Outside of some fad diets, there isn’t really much of a push among anyone to cut plants out of your diet though. There’s no need to make fake plant-products generally.
