Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organization, under international sanctions. Nobody expects them to bow to UN pressure.
Israel is supposedly a responsible and law abiding nation state, with diplomatic ties, international recognition, and is expected to behave according to international law.
If you want equal treatment that can be done, the UN is repeatedly tired of Israel’s behavior
Weird how the Israeli forces suddenly started finding all of these connections between UNWRA and Hamas hours after the ICJ ruled against them. Also weird that the IDF claims that anything set up to help Palestinian civilians, like UNWRA, hospitals, and refugee camps, are Hamas strongholds, but no one can ever verify these claims (usually because they been obliterated by Israeli air strikes).
These allegations have been around for years. Dude, it’s the largest employer in Gaza. You don’t think there’s some overlap between the largest employer and the hugely popular terrorist organization?
You know some of the MAGAs on January 6 probably worked at Wal-Mart, just statistically. Not really much difference here, except the MAGAs probably didn’t co-opt Wal-Mart’s resources to pull off their attack.
I mean, there are 1,300 of UNWRA employees in Palestine, most of them Palestinian. Do I think it’s possible the 13 accused employees were involved in the October attack? Yes, I believe it’s possible that literally 1% of them were involved.
Do I think that UNWRA as an institution was working with Hamas? Only in the sense that Hamas is in control of the government, and there is literally no way to carry out their mission of aiding the Palestinian people without working the the ruling government.
Do I think that UNWRA was working the Hamas on planning military attacks, or allowing their building to be used as a base of operations for Hamas terrorists? No, and the IDF is going to have to produce better evidence than a tunnel underneath a building (which they completely leveled) to convince me of otherwise.
13,000 in UNRWA employees in Gaza, as I understand. The IDF’s dossier also alleged that 1,300, or 10%, were direct supporters of Hamas whilst 50% have close family or close friends who are members of Hamas.
I don’t think UNRWA itself was officially coordinating the attacks, but I have zero doubt that UNRWA negligently let it’s resources being coopted, and the world needed a reality check on UNRWA’s activities in Gaza. As you said, they do justifiably work with Hamas as much as anyone can justify working with terrorists. The question is how friendly is UNRWA to Hamas and it’s strategies in that work? Some of longstanding allegations are that UNRWA teaches that martyrdom is honorable and that martyrs are heroes. Perhaps that explains some of the shocking numbers of civilians killed?
You’re right, I misread that statistic…so, literally 0.1%. I highly doubt that 10% number, or at least I believe that they’re inflating it with a loose definition of, “support.” I suspect that a lot of instances of, “directly supporting,” Hamas will turn out to be people working the Hamas government to distribute supplies to civilians, some of which wound up going to militants. The 50% having close friends of family supporting Hamas seems closer to true, but what of it? Going back to your example, I’m sure at least that percentage of Americans have family/friends who support the January 6th rioters, but that doesn’t mean they want to overthrow the government.
These allegations seem like war propaganda, and the fact that they came out at the exact same time as the ICJ ruling is even more suspicious. Until they are backed up any other credible source, I will treat them as such.
Well, I can’t read most of the WSJ’s coverage because it’s behind a pay wall, but it’s anything like the AP or Reuters coverage, it’s going to say that these claims are only being made by the Israeli military and not independently verified (the opening paragraph of the WSJ coverage seems to line up with this). The AP even notes, “It did not prove definitively that Hamas militants operated in the tunnels underneath the UNWRA facility, but it did show that at least a portion of the tunnel ran underneath the facility’s courtyard.” So, did the IDF show that Hamas was working with UNWRA, or did they show some journalists a tunnel near UNWRA building?
I can read the first paragraph, the rest is behind a pay wall. Have you never seen a pay wall? Here’s the first sentence: “Hidden deep below the headquarters of the United Nations’ aid agency for Palestinians here is a Hamas complex with rows of computer servers that Israel’s armed forces say served as an important communications center and intelligence hub for the Islamist militant group.” My guess is, based on the fact that no news agency is verifying this claim, and the opening sentence of the WSJ coverage is citing Israeli claims, they also don’t have any evidence besides the IDF’s claims.
But why don’t you tell me? You obviously read the entire article, or you wouldn’t be referencing it. Does the WSJ have any independent evidence outside of the Israeli presentation show to the news agencies? What evidence is provided by the WSJ that is absent from the AP coverage I linked to? I mean, you must know, you did read the article, not just the headline, right?
Edit: Weird, this guy made 9 comments since I left this reply, including some trying to undermine the AP article I cited, but he hasn’t responded to this. If I didn’t know any better I’d swear he hadn’t read that WSJ article.
One doesn’t need to be authority to see the obvious.
After so many people proving you wrong with facts and you were only repeating the same nonsensical lines without bringing anything new to the table that would support your point.
Yes. I’m denying the pathetic ‘evidence’ you tried to insert into the discussion, because it functionally proves nothing:
A tunnel entrance, then the video cuts
Now we’re in a tunnel, looking at computers racks and screens. And another video cut
Now we’re in a BUILDING! Ooooh how’d they get into the building? Hmmmm that’d seem like some actual proof if they showed how the tunnel and building were linked! Too bad they don’t show that part, I wonder why not? 🤔
Ohhh now he’s saying things. “Omg look at the wires, they’re cut! Only eeeevil people cut wires, they must be hiding something” DAMNING PROOF, we clearly need to disband UNRWA immediately
You keep offering these low effort drive-by claims, and reply with cheap arguments or retorts when challenged. There’s plenty that Al-Quassam and Hamas have done wrong, without inventing false narratives that lack evidence.
“Oh, so now you’re just deny deny deny, huh?! So typical!”
And the other option is…blind belief in unfounded claims? Here’s a suggestion: back up your claim. Don’t just chant “denial denial denial” like it’s actually an argument.
Back up the claim how? The raw intelligence is classified, no doubt. All anyone ever gets is public statements and watered down facts.
Israel is a democracy though and has traditions of open government and of prosecuting war criminals. Hamas is a far right theocratic authoritarian regime that rules by assassination and wanton use of human shields, i.e., literally building massive tunnel systems under every city and using them to conduct decades of terror attack and indiscriminate rocket attacks in civilian targets. Whenever a bunch of Palestinian’s died, usually Israel says “well some of them were Hamas.” Hamas on the other hand insists every time that none of the dead are Hamas. For that reason, Israel is more credible.
I am sensing some denial here. I’m sure they just accidentally added cuts to the video, surely they wouldn’t try to mislead people by fabricating evidence.
Why has there been zero independent verification if the IDF proof is so clear cut?
Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organization, under international sanctions. Nobody expects them to bow to UN pressure.
Israel is supposedly a responsible and law abiding nation state, with diplomatic ties, international recognition, and is expected to behave according to international law.
If you want equal treatment that can be done, the UN is repeatedly tired of Israel’s behavior
But they’re such good friends, they allow Hamas to build tunnels below UN HQ.
https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1756369328184734024?t=x9wntjsdvZaM-H2Yt8eguw&s=19
Weird how the Israeli forces suddenly started finding all of these connections between UNWRA and Hamas hours after the ICJ ruled against them. Also weird that the IDF claims that anything set up to help Palestinian civilians, like UNWRA, hospitals, and refugee camps, are Hamas strongholds, but no one can ever verify these claims (usually because they been obliterated by Israeli air strikes).
Ah we’ve progressed to delusional conspiracy.
LOL, you are claiming the U.N. is in league with Hamas my guy, please get some perspective.
These allegations have been around for years. Dude, it’s the largest employer in Gaza. You don’t think there’s some overlap between the largest employer and the hugely popular terrorist organization?
You know some of the MAGAs on January 6 probably worked at Wal-Mart, just statistically. Not really much difference here, except the MAGAs probably didn’t co-opt Wal-Mart’s resources to pull off their attack.
I mean, there are 1,300 of UNWRA employees in Palestine, most of them Palestinian. Do I think it’s possible the 13 accused employees were involved in the October attack? Yes, I believe it’s possible that literally 1% of them were involved.
Do I think that UNWRA as an institution was working with Hamas? Only in the sense that Hamas is in control of the government, and there is literally no way to carry out their mission of aiding the Palestinian people without working the the ruling government.
Do I think that UNWRA was working the Hamas on planning military attacks, or allowing their building to be used as a base of operations for Hamas terrorists? No, and the IDF is going to have to produce better evidence than a tunnel underneath a building (which they completely leveled) to convince me of otherwise.
13,000 in UNRWA employees in Gaza, as I understand. The IDF’s dossier also alleged that 1,300, or 10%, were direct supporters of Hamas whilst 50% have close family or close friends who are members of Hamas.
I don’t think UNRWA itself was officially coordinating the attacks, but I have zero doubt that UNRWA negligently let it’s resources being coopted, and the world needed a reality check on UNRWA’s activities in Gaza. As you said, they do justifiably work with Hamas as much as anyone can justify working with terrorists. The question is how friendly is UNRWA to Hamas and it’s strategies in that work? Some of longstanding allegations are that UNRWA teaches that martyrdom is honorable and that martyrs are heroes. Perhaps that explains some of the shocking numbers of civilians killed?
You’re right, I misread that statistic…so, literally 0.1%. I highly doubt that 10% number, or at least I believe that they’re inflating it with a loose definition of, “support.” I suspect that a lot of instances of, “directly supporting,” Hamas will turn out to be people working the Hamas government to distribute supplies to civilians, some of which wound up going to militants. The 50% having close friends of family supporting Hamas seems closer to true, but what of it? Going back to your example, I’m sure at least that percentage of Americans have family/friends who support the January 6th rioters, but that doesn’t mean they want to overthrow the government.
These allegations seem like war propaganda, and the fact that they came out at the exact same time as the ICJ ruling is even more suspicious. Until they are backed up any other credible source, I will treat them as such.
You can talk to the Wall Street Journal. They think the same thing. But, you can’t even accept what your eyes see on video.
Well, I can’t read most of the WSJ’s coverage because it’s behind a pay wall, but it’s anything like the AP or Reuters coverage, it’s going to say that these claims are only being made by the Israeli military and not independently verified (the opening paragraph of the WSJ coverage seems to line up with this). The AP even notes, “It did not prove definitively that Hamas militants operated in the tunnels underneath the UNWRA facility, but it did show that at least a portion of the tunnel ran underneath the facility’s courtyard.” So, did the IDF show that Hamas was working with UNWRA, or did they show some journalists a tunnel near UNWRA building?
So you can’t read it, but will tell me what it says? Pretty funny.
I can read the first paragraph, the rest is behind a pay wall. Have you never seen a pay wall? Here’s the first sentence: “Hidden deep below the headquarters of the United Nations’ aid agency for Palestinians here is a Hamas complex with rows of computer servers that Israel’s armed forces say served as an important communications center and intelligence hub for the Islamist militant group.” My guess is, based on the fact that no news agency is verifying this claim, and the opening sentence of the WSJ coverage is citing Israeli claims, they also don’t have any evidence besides the IDF’s claims.
But why don’t you tell me? You obviously read the entire article, or you wouldn’t be referencing it. Does the WSJ have any independent evidence outside of the Israeli presentation show to the news agencies? What evidence is provided by the WSJ that is absent from the AP coverage I linked to? I mean, you must know, you did read the article, not just the headline, right?
Edit: Weird, this guy made 9 comments since I left this reply, including some trying to undermine the AP article I cited, but he hasn’t responded to this. If I didn’t know any better I’d swear he hadn’t read that WSJ article.
deleted by creator
Ah yes, an Israeli “AI expert” is really a reliable source of information in this conflict.
Denial is always the first refuge. It’s predictable
Man, you really can’t accept that you lost this argument and you keep parroting the same line.
I’ve lost some sort of competition you say? Shucks
You are making a fool of yourself.
Are you some kind of authority?
One doesn’t need to be authority to see the obvious.
After so many people proving you wrong with facts and you were only repeating the same nonsensical lines without bringing anything new to the table that would support your point.
Multiple cuts to the video, no verification it is a UNRWA building, nothing linking the tunnel to the UN building is shown. Just talk
Do better, don’t swallow propaganda willfully
Denial. It’s for lunch and dinner.
Yes. I’m denying the pathetic ‘evidence’ you tried to insert into the discussion, because it functionally proves nothing:
You keep offering these low effort drive-by claims, and reply with cheap arguments or retorts when challenged. There’s plenty that Al-Quassam and Hamas have done wrong, without inventing false narratives that lack evidence.
.There is a double down on denial.
offers dubious evidence
“Oh, so now you’re just deny deny deny, huh?! So typical!”
And the other option is…blind belief in unfounded claims? Here’s a suggestion: back up your claim. Don’t just chant “denial denial denial” like it’s actually an argument.
Back up the claim how? The raw intelligence is classified, no doubt. All anyone ever gets is public statements and watered down facts.
Israel is a democracy though and has traditions of open government and of prosecuting war criminals. Hamas is a far right theocratic authoritarian regime that rules by assassination and wanton use of human shields, i.e., literally building massive tunnel systems under every city and using them to conduct decades of terror attack and indiscriminate rocket attacks in civilian targets. Whenever a bunch of Palestinian’s died, usually Israel says “well some of them were Hamas.” Hamas on the other hand insists every time that none of the dead are Hamas. For that reason, Israel is more credible.
Yup, you just can’t believe your lyin eyes. Can’t trust them for sure.
I am sensing some denial here. I’m sure they just accidentally added cuts to the video, surely they wouldn’t try to mislead people by fabricating evidence.
Why has there been zero independent verification if the IDF proof is so clear cut?