And in your view, the thing that threatens their power is voting Dem? Please let me know if I’ve misunderstood. If not: (i) how does this ‘solution’ help people who aren’t in the US and (ii) the Dems are in power and have been in power recently before this, and recently before that, and they achieved… what? They brought as much horror to the world as the GOP.
They brought as much horror to the world as the GOP.
This is such a ridiculously wrong statement that if I hadn’t already been talking with you and could see you’re not an idiot, I’d assume you’re too stupid to reason with and just start calling you names. How could you possibly come to that conclusion?
how does this ‘solution’ help people who aren’t in the US
Depends on the country, but it’s generally applicable to most places. A revolution is not happening. Change within the system. And for some places, having Dems in charge in the US allows the US to pressure those countries to change in better ways.
Ah. I’m from kbin, so I can’t view the lemmy.ml homepage (to my knowledge) unless I navigate outside my fediverse account. The linked post seems to be down right now, but I’ll view it when I get a chance.
I’m from kbin, so I can’t view the lemmy.ml homepage (to my knowledge) unless I navigate outside my fediverse account.
You can view it, by pointing your browser to https://lemmy.ml. This community is hosted on lemmy.ml, and as such, the instance rules apply in addition to the community rules. Just like on the rest of the fediverse.
The post is not “down”, whatever that means; it pulls up fine for me. Either way, here is an archived version.
You can view it, by pointing your browser to lemmy.ml.
Yeah, that’s outside of my federation account. For example, right now I’m viewing this post with the url kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml. But I don’t think there’s any mechanism to look at the page kbin.social/lemmy.ml or something. Or at least I’m not aware of it.
Anyway, the page is back up, and I read it.
I understand the intent of the rule, but I’ve seen communities who require “only respectful discourse” get swamped by sealions and bad-faith “just asking questions” types with dogwhistles and veiled references. In my opinion, sometimes namecalling and insulting is a necessary counter to someone spreading a poisonous bad-faith idea, especially when it’s outright propaganda. But, I’m not a server admin, so I’ll try to be more respectful of that rule in the future.
I am so confused at your comments here. It’s a webpage. You can point your browser to (or click the link:) https://lemmy.ml. You can do it on your computer, on your phone, on your refrigerator. It’s a website. Just like https://youtube.com is a website. I don’t know why you’re even mentioning kbin here, it would be like saying you can’t view facebook because you’re logged in to kbin.
I understand the intent of the rule, but I’ve seen communities who require “only respectful discourse” get swamped by sealions and bad-faith “just asking questions” types with dogwhistles and veiled references. In my opinion, sometimes namecalling and insulting is a necessary counter to someone spreading a poisonous bad-faith idea
The presence of name calling and insults is always a problem. The absence of name calling and insults does not guarantee there is no problem. Moderation is still necessary even with “only disrespectful discourse” rules; any effective moderation needs to know how to moderate as well: moderators need to know how to spot and resolve types of detractive content that aren’t simply name calling.
Name calling and insults are also not a productive way to address what you consider bad-faith conversation. You should attack an idea and not the person. There are already other rules in place to help address when the idea itself is harmful: there is a rule against bigotry, xenophobia, racism, sexism, and the like; there is a rule about knowingly spreading false information. I would also stipulate (and this is personal speculation but I feel it to be an accurate view): most people who are “spreading propaganda” are not doing it with the knowledge that what they’re saying is propaganda and with the intent to spread propaganda; most probably believe what they say to be true for various reasons including their media exposure, the political climate in their interpersonal interactions and their community and country, their parental influence on their beliefs, etc. If you look at it from that point of view, what good is insulting someone who isn’t actually acting with malice? They’re going to be less likely to reevaluate their beliefs and look at what you’re saying objectively if you’re spewing emotionally charged personally attacks at them, even if you are mixing in valid logic and evidence. And you’re hopefully not here purely to argue and throw insult; hopefully at least part of you wants to learn and help others learn. If that’s even part of what’s driving your participation, wouldn’t you want to do so in a manner that’s more productive to everyone involved? So, in my opinion: if they’re not acting with malice, insulting them does nothing good; if they are active with malice, report them and if there’s proper moderation it’ll be removed.
Unfortunately they don’t care. They know what they’re doing,
This discussion (and name calling) isn’t for you. It’s for the audience.
And yet they keep doing it, and defending it.
And it’s not just this thread: read their comment history, and it’s littered with name calling and personal attacks. I report their really egregious stuff but it’s tedious reporting every single comment that has personal attacks.
Yeah I had them blocked for a bit over a day, but they’re so prolific that I keep seeing other comments responding to theirs (without the ability to see theirs) which confuses me even more while reading my feed.
I think you might be right. I let it slide in other comments as I put it down to the ordinary liberal world-outlook. But there’s only so long I’ll put up with schoolyard name-calling. I’ve got better things to do.
I think Lemmy needs a little bit of work on how blocking a user works. It gets confusing seeing new comments come through and not being able to see what they’re replying to. You also have no option to report a comment if you can’t see it. Even if you click the “show context” button, knowing that you’re about to force a blocked user’s comment to show, it just refuses. You have to open in an incognito tab and click show context. Basically, I want the ability to not see their comments in general, and not see them on the “new comments” feed, but if I explicitly ask to see their comments, let me do that.
I have blocked a large number of users who have consistently added nothing to conversation, or who routinely resort to personal attacks.
I am truly frustrated and disappointed that so many people:
feel it acceptable to personally attack another commenter
accuse everyone who disagrees with them of being a paid shill, or a troll
use “shut down” words, with the intent to either entirely discredit the person they’re responding to, or end the conversation where it is
literally copy-and-paste the same reply all over a thread or targeting a person[1]
make bold claims with no sources, and when you reply correcting them and provide sources of your own, they downvote and don’t reply
engage in conspiracy thinking and go on imaginative expeditions, where connection to reality is secondary to consistency with their beliefs
I know it’s naive to think people will be able to always get along. And I guess it is naive to assume that people actually want to learn, and try to help others learn. But that’s what I want. I’d much rather converse with someone who shares none of my values or beliefs as long as they’re level-headed, not resorting to trickery or fallacious reasoning, are willing to source their statements, and respect me in dialogue.
I saw one yesterday where the person copy-and-pasted something like “Russia started the war” about 10 times across a thread, several times replying to the same person, sometimes other people. Every time, it wasn’t actually directly relevant to the comment they replied to. It’s just an attempt to brute-force shut someone down. ↩︎
And in your view, the thing that threatens their power is voting Dem? Please let me know if I’ve misunderstood. If not: (i) how does this ‘solution’ help people who aren’t in the US and (ii) the Dems are in power and have been in power recently before this, and recently before that, and they achieved… what? They brought as much horror to the world as the GOP.
You’ve misunderstood.
They’re in power by a THREAD now, and they brought us the IRA, which is the best thing we’ve done for the climate in a long time, probably decades.
And they haven’t been in power before this since a few months in 2008 when they brought us the Affordable Care Act.
The example I keep using is California, where Dems have effectively a permanent supermajority. California will be 100% clean energy by 2045: https://www.energy.ca.gov/news/2021-03/california-releases-report-charting-path-100-percent-clean-electricity
This is such a ridiculously wrong statement that if I hadn’t already been talking with you and could see you’re not an idiot, I’d assume you’re too stupid to reason with and just start calling you names. How could you possibly come to that conclusion?
Depends on the country, but it’s generally applicable to most places. A revolution is not happening. Change within the system. And for some places, having Dems in charge in the US allows the US to pressure those countries to change in better ways.
Please familiarise yourself with Rule 2. You’ve been struggling to satisfy it throughout this thread and it’s starting to get tedious.
…no NSFW content?
Instance rule 2 is
I suggest you read the linked page as well.
Ah. I’m from kbin, so I can’t view the lemmy.ml homepage (to my knowledge) unless I navigate outside my fediverse account. The linked post seems to be down right now, but I’ll view it when I get a chance.
You can view it, by pointing your browser to https://lemmy.ml. This community is hosted on lemmy.ml, and as such, the instance rules apply in addition to the community rules. Just like on the rest of the fediverse.
The post is not “down”, whatever that means; it pulls up fine for me. Either way, here is an archived version.
Yeah, that’s outside of my federation account. For example, right now I’m viewing this post with the url kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml. But I don’t think there’s any mechanism to look at the page kbin.social/lemmy.ml or something. Or at least I’m not aware of it.
Anyway, the page is back up, and I read it.
I understand the intent of the rule, but I’ve seen communities who require “only respectful discourse” get swamped by sealions and bad-faith “just asking questions” types with dogwhistles and veiled references. In my opinion, sometimes namecalling and insulting is a necessary counter to someone spreading a poisonous bad-faith idea, especially when it’s outright propaganda. But, I’m not a server admin, so I’ll try to be more respectful of that rule in the future.
I am so confused at your comments here. It’s a webpage. You can point your browser to (or click the link:) https://lemmy.ml. You can do it on your computer, on your phone, on your refrigerator. It’s a website. Just like https://youtube.com is a website. I don’t know why you’re even mentioning kbin here, it would be like saying you can’t view facebook because you’re logged in to kbin.
The presence of name calling and insults is always a problem. The absence of name calling and insults does not guarantee there is no problem. Moderation is still necessary even with “only disrespectful discourse” rules; any effective moderation needs to know how to moderate as well: moderators need to know how to spot and resolve types of detractive content that aren’t simply name calling.
Name calling and insults are also not a productive way to address what you consider bad-faith conversation. You should attack an idea and not the person. There are already other rules in place to help address when the idea itself is harmful: there is a rule against bigotry, xenophobia, racism, sexism, and the like; there is a rule about knowingly spreading false information. I would also stipulate (and this is personal speculation but I feel it to be an accurate view): most people who are “spreading propaganda” are not doing it with the knowledge that what they’re saying is propaganda and with the intent to spread propaganda; most probably believe what they say to be true for various reasons including their media exposure, the political climate in their interpersonal interactions and their community and country, their parental influence on their beliefs, etc. If you look at it from that point of view, what good is insulting someone who isn’t actually acting with malice? They’re going to be less likely to reevaluate their beliefs and look at what you’re saying objectively if you’re spewing emotionally charged personally attacks at them, even if you are mixing in valid logic and evidence. And you’re hopefully not here purely to argue and throw insult; hopefully at least part of you wants to learn and help others learn. If that’s even part of what’s driving your participation, wouldn’t you want to do so in a manner that’s more productive to everyone involved? So, in my opinion: if they’re not acting with malice, insulting them does nothing good; if they are active with malice, report them and if there’s proper moderation it’ll be removed.
Unfortunately they don’t care. They know what they’re doing,
And yet they keep doing it, and defending it.
And it’s not just this thread: read their comment history, and it’s littered with name calling and personal attacks. I report their really egregious stuff but it’s tedious reporting every single comment that has personal attacks.
Thanks for pointing this out, I’ll stop feeding them.
Yeah I had them blocked for a bit over a day, but they’re so prolific that I keep seeing other comments responding to theirs (without the ability to see theirs) which confuses me even more while reading my feed.
I think you might be right. I let it slide in other comments as I put it down to the ordinary liberal world-outlook. But there’s only so long I’ll put up with schoolyard name-calling. I’ve got better things to do.
I think Lemmy needs a little bit of work on how blocking a user works. It gets confusing seeing new comments come through and not being able to see what they’re replying to. You also have no option to report a comment if you can’t see it. Even if you click the “show context” button, knowing that you’re about to force a blocked user’s comment to show, it just refuses. You have to open in an incognito tab and click show context. Basically, I want the ability to not see their comments in general, and not see them on the “new comments” feed, but if I explicitly ask to see their comments, let me do that.
I have blocked a large number of users who have consistently added nothing to conversation, or who routinely resort to personal attacks.
I am truly frustrated and disappointed that so many people:
I know it’s naive to think people will be able to always get along. And I guess it is naive to assume that people actually want to learn, and try to help others learn. But that’s what I want. I’d much rather converse with someone who shares none of my values or beliefs as long as they’re level-headed, not resorting to trickery or fallacious reasoning, are willing to source their statements, and respect me in dialogue.
I saw one yesterday where the person copy-and-pasted something like “Russia started the war” about 10 times across a thread, several times replying to the same person, sometimes other people. Every time, it wasn’t actually directly relevant to the comment they replied to. It’s just an attempt to brute-force shut someone down. ↩︎