• MrFagtron9000@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    This is such a fucking stupid argument to make.

    The reason airlines make x% of CO2 emissions is because people want to fly, they’re an airline, and there is no emissions free way to power a plane.

    The reason the plastic company makes x billions of plastic sporks every year is because I want a spoon to eat my Taco Bell Nachos in my car. They’re not making all the plastic pollution because they just hate the Earth.

    They’re not cartoon villains like in Captain Planet that pollute just to make pollution.

    • Monkatronic@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 year ago

      From what I understand, a lot of corporations have power over the options consumers have, the market isnt as free as this argument implies. For example, coal and fossil fuel lobbies do a lot to prevent sustainable alternatives from being adopted.

      The US doesnt rely on oil and coal because thats what consumers want, or because its necessarily the cheapest, its because the people that run those corporations have the means to subvert democracy. They are not cartoon villains, but they are absolutely villains.

      What you are saying is true for plastic straws and airlines, but I would guess it doesnt really apply to many of these 100 corporations

    • complacent_jerboa@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      You’re absolutely right. They aren’t cartoon villains. They’re just rational agents acting according to very real incentives.

      But where do these incentives come from? They depend on how we choose to organize our economy, what guiding principles our society follows in how to distribute resources, and harvest them from the environment.

      They come from our economic system. Our economic system is capitalism. And one of the many, many problems with capitalism — it can’t fucking slow down. In the eternal chase for greater and greater quarterly profits, there is no room for questions such as “is this growth sustainable?” or “I know there’s demand for this, but should we really be doing it?”.

      Pointing fingers and blaming people is, indeed, a waste of energy. Instead, it may be better to ask: “How do we incentivise people to change their behaviour? What about our system needs to change? And how quickly can we dismantle the oil companies?”

      • MrFagtron9000@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        We can’t incentivize people to change their behavior because no one is going to deliberately lower their quality of life.

        What politician is going to win on a platform of…

        Let’s make air travel so expensive that normal people can no longer regularly fly!

        Vote for me I’m going to double your electricity bill!

        You know that big SUV you love that is entirely impractical but you just like it because of how big it is… If you vote for me I’ll make gas $7 a gallon so that you can’t afford to have a giant SUV anymore.

        You know how you like to eat your Taco Bell nachos in your car with a plastic spork… If you vote for me I’ll replace the plastic spork with a cornstarch spork that starts to melt when you use it.

        The only thing that is going to save us is technology. Like air travel being fueled by biofuels, electricity costs kept somewhat normal by building new nuclear generation, giant SUVs being powered by batteries charged by nuclear/renewable energy, actually recycling the plastic spork.

    • Smk@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      If it’s that bad, then let’s make a law that fixes the problem.

      You can take this and just welp, plastic spoon is cheaper and all my concurrent are doing it so fuck it.

      We want a greener industry? Make the fucking law reflect that otherwise, fuck off.

      • Vreya37@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 year ago

        Which is how this ends up being a chicken-egg problem.

        Are people driving plastic usage or is capitalism driving policies that drive people to use more plastic?

        And if so, why is industry writing policy instead of the public, or agents that are supposed to work for the public’s interest?

        None of this ends until enough “regular people” coordinate to take power back from industry so that we operate like an actual democracy again. If you want to preserve an environment on Earth fit for human habitation, you have to get loud about… Campaign finance reform : P. And then realized that as boring as that sounds, that that will be when things actually would get violent and scary bc real power would be threatened.

        I am not optimistic we’ll even get that far. Our population probably will take some very severe hits in our lifetime though. I’ll cut down on meat where I can, but I am mostly just enjoying the good times we have left.

      • KᑌᔕᕼIᗩ@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        It’s almost as if regulations are needed because humans are incapable of doing the right thing to protect themselves. Fairly common thing I might add but you’d require a slightly larger government to do it and we can’t have that either.