After a day and several replies from people. I’ve come to the conclusion that people here are ok with their party and leaders supporting genocide and they attack the questioners (instead of their party leaders) who criticize those who support genocide. Critical thinking is scarce here.
I’m shameful of humanity.
If the democrats will ignore our demands and continue their support and funding of genocidal regime then they will lose this election.
the democrats are doing great, especially after the resounding success at the debate.
there is plenty of counter evidence against your whining.
The democrats have a huge following, also, importantly, this is an election.
they could lose anyway. That’s what an election is.
If you want to vote for a third party, go for it, that is how voting works.
given that Harris has already pushed forward momentum on basically every major progressive policy for the past 4 years, you’d be an idiot not to vote for harris and walz if you care about people at all.
“If the democrats will ignore our demands…”
you draw lazy memes and have no valid arguments. it doesn’t sound like you really care about anything.
nobody cares about your pretension.
You seem very happy with this democrat government. But would you start hating them if they include policy like ending support/funding of genocide?
that would be good also.
It’s good you finally learned about the Palestinian genocide, but threatening to let conservatives further mangle the country when you have a progressive alternative is selfish and incredibly narrow-minded.
stopping the US from sending weapons will not stop Israel.
they are a third party with plenty of international support and funding that is under no obligation to listen to the US.
The US can stop sending bombs tomorrow, they could have stopped sending bombs months ago and Israel’s military would atill be fully prepared to continue this war as long as they want to, regardless.
you are shooting yourself and everybody around you in the foot for rhe privilege of eating night soil by voting against harris.
And how exactly is not voting doing that when…
Either the Democrats are comfortably winning (in which case we can vote with our conscience), or they’re not (in which case vocal opposition to genocide might encourage them to change policies to garner our vote).
The alternative is that nothing will get them to change policies because they’re not interested in our vote. In which case the whole “turn up and the Democrats will move left” theory is nonsense.
“Either the Democrats are comfortably winning”
Don’t get comfortable in a democracy that works.
people get to vote who they want to vote for.
“The alternative is that…” - the illusion of only two choices comes from your having grown up with a broken democracy.
“In which case the whole “turn up and the Democrats will move left” theory is nonsense.”
this is nonense.
none of this is the neat logic game you want it to be.
in an election, people get to vote for who they want to vote for.
in this election, Harris is the clear better choice for people who are not selfish.
this does not mean that she wins.
And yet…
So presumably it is the “neat clear logic game” you want it to be.
You haven’t answered any of the criticisms raised against your argument.
It’s OK to just disagree with me and explain why, you know. You don’t have to label all opposing arguments as ‘nonsense’ (or misinformation, or ideologically biased, or whatever the latest buzz-term is…). You can just disagree. Humans are marvellous like that, we look at things differently from each other and form different views as a result. We even have this amazing tool ‘rational discourse’ whereby we can dissect those differences. It’s great.
If you think one (or more) of my criticisms flawed, then quote it and point out the flaw. Try it, you might like it.
“So presumably it is the “neat clear logic game” you want it to be.”
no, I literally said it isn’t the clear logic game you wanted to be.
“You haven’t answered any of the criticisms raised against your argument.”
i’ve addressed every criticism I’ve received so far, but if you wrote them to other people or somewhere else then I haven’t seen them.
Go ahead, ask away.
Yes,and then you went on to present a clear logic game of your own (vote for Kamala=good), hence my criticism.
I thought I had but…
If the Democrats are not assured victory (as you now seem to be saying) then why is the anti-genocide strategy supposed to be ‘vote for them anyway’, and not ‘refuse to vote for them unless they change their policy’.
We start from the premise that Democrats need votes (either because they’re losing, or because they don’t want to rest on their laurels). We agree one of these is the case, yes?
So your anti-genocide solution is to just give them the votes they need without asking for anything in return.
The solution @when@lemmy.world suggested, which you’re arguing against, is to negotiate. To use the power we have as voters whose vote they need (or really, really want), to ask for a change in policy in return for that vote.
You haven’t explained why the latter won’t work other than the Democrats not wanting those votes, or not wanting to end the genocide.
If we assume both - the Democrats want to end genocide and want more votes, them why wouldn’t they offer to end genocide in exchange for more votes?
I think supporting/funding genocide shouldn’t be democratic party policy, it would suit more on far-right. But reality is different. Even after thousands of posts, emails to representatives, cases in court, protests in campuses and rallies. Democrats are eager to support/fund a genocide.
Democratic party has become a far-right party.
incorrect.
democrats are protesting Palestine.
not by writing lazy memes, but by writing the letters, going out in marches and getting arrested like you’re talking about.
“I think supporting/funding genocide shouldn’t be democratic party policy”
meither do democrats.
“Democrats are eager to support/fund a genocide.”
completely incorrect:
you know what’s been consistent for 70 years? despite which party was in power, Israel, a country established specifically to avoid further genocide, was supported with US financial help and military aid.
you still believe the fiction that there are two political parties and that’s how politics works, so you’re operating off that principle.
that is a flawed premise, and so your conclusions are foolishly and falsely diametric.
“Democratic party has become a far-right party.”
this is idiotic.
democrats, especially for the past 4 years, have successfully taken the presidency away from Trump, who actually enacted far-right policies. this is extremely significant and the presidency was taken forcefully away from Trump because of the democratic party promising and then delivering progressive change.
biden and the democrats have also furthered every significant progressive policy more than any President in recent years, certainly more than I would have guessed - civil rights from minorities, legal and social funding for minorities, climate change, on and on to include every major progressive policy; democrats are pro-choice, pro- change, none of these are far right positions.
It’s great that the half a century plus old Palestinian genocide you just found out about outrages you, but the world hasn’t suddenly become black and white because of a piece of knowledge that is new to you.
third party voters are as valid a democratic electorate as the hardline conservative and the hard line liberal ever were.
people get to vote who they want to vote for.
you should find out which policies you actually believe in and vote according to your beliefs.
do you believe in social consciousness? do you believe in personal autonomy? do you believe in taxing the rich? do you believe in social services? do you believe in combating climate change? sustainable technology? Harris has already made material strides in these progressive positions while the other major candidate has actively worked against those policies.
there are two major candidates, one of them is going to win.
you, as a voter, are responsible for which one wins either way.