I might be able to help here! Trying to save/convert someone can look a lot of different ways, but what almost never works is aggressively pursuing someone. The best way is to live by example and just engage in theological conversations when they come up, not by pushing but mainly by being curious and asking questions.
With this method it is quite easy to have friends from different belief systems. Everyone is on their own journey and sometimes it takes a lifetime, but being pushy is never a good option.
As long as you’re equally prepared to be deconverted.
I have argued theists into corners, and at that point they disengage, or begin to pick and choose what parts of what I’m saying they will acknowledge.
The problem for me, is that for me to let you be, I just need to be ok with you believeing in some things that aren’t real. As long as your conduct is acceptable and fair, I have no reason to intervene aside from a respect for truth.
Still, all religion is harmful, because belief in the unreal distorts reality, and impacts how you vote and make consequential decisions, affecting humanity as a whole. Individual behaviour is mostly benign, but as institutions religions are wrecking balls rolling through civilisation and history.
Even here you talk about how you wish to convince me by “living by example” as if religion provides something I would want, that I can’t have any other way. All it has to offer are lies, and I have refused to believe them. Nothing you can say or do is more convincing to me than whatever a Muslim, Hindu, or the ancient greeks, might say.
But still, to placate your own sense of guilt, you might pray for me. But then, you’re not letting me be. You’re not accepting the way I’ve chosen to live life. If you want god to intervene, you’ve rejected me, and my choice.
This is what “there is no hate like christian love” refers to. You will openly express love, while completely failing to understand that your beliefs reject parts of who some people are. You do not love us. You do not accept us. You feel like you do and you say that you do.
But all thats felt at the other end, is the rejection. The knowledge that someone who is supposed to care about you, deep in their heart, with the fiery passion of religious conviction, believes that something about the way you are, is so deeply wrong, that you deserve literal eternal punishment.
Do you have any idea how deeply that wounds?
This simple reality turns the love you feel and attempt to express for someone, into the most vile, abhorrent, twisted feeling of rejection it is possible to inflict on another. And the more you express it, the more it hurts. Some people kill themselves because of it.
Those of us who maintain friendships with you, simply ignore that part of how you feel. I can’t do it. I can’t be friends with someone who thinks I’ll go to hell for being me. They’ll never convert me, and if they are ok with that, I can barely stand being in the same room. And if they do try to convert me, refer back to my second paragraph.
How are you able to love me, and also let me be, even as you genuinely believe that “my journey” ends in eternal suffering? Or how can you expect me, to accept someone who can do that, as a genuinely good person?
As long as you’re equally prepared to be deconverted.
Totally agreed on this point! To have a fruitful theological conversation, all parties ideally would have set aside emotion and bias in order to pursue the truth. That is much easier said then done, but is something I think we should all strive for.
You have included a lot more here than I have the time to respond to sadly (hopefully someone else will) but I’ll respond to your last point:
How are you able to love me, and also let me be, even as you genuinely believe that “my journey” ends in eternal suffering? Or how can you expect me, to accept someone who can do that, as a genuinely good person?
I can’t say I’m a genuinely good person, but I would say that it comes down to respecting the persons individual autonomy. For example, if I have a friend who has a habit that I consider destructive, I wouldn’t join them in the habit, but my love for them shouldn’t change. I would be sad that the trajectory (in my opinion) would end with suffering but as their friend, I should lead by example in what I think is a better life and keep hoping that they see where I’m coming from. Plus, maybe they will convince me the other way on this or other topics!
My general life philosophy is to question everything. You will either end up with a more solid foundation in what you believe or you will have one of those awesome paradigm shattering events. Either way though, an open mind is required and I’d encourage you to keep listening to those you disagree with. You may be surprised!
I’ve deconstructed theological “logic” to the point of boredom.
I can’t say as a secular thinker that I’m anything like “open-minded” to religion. I used to describe myself as agnostic, but that is a mere stop along a road to the truth of anti-theism.
And that road absolutely has a “wrong” direction. At this point, there is zero chance of anyone converting me. No-one has ever said a word to me that managed to shake that conviction even for a second. I’m at a point where I fail to see the point of religion even as a mere human institution of utility. All it seems to do is twist perception of reality en-masse, causing all the evil it does, and making all the good it does less efficient.
Both sides do not need to be open to convincing, for us to have a discussion about whether Santa exists. We can still talk about it even if one us knows he doesn’t. And I would consider an adult changing their mind on Santas non-existence, to be an obvious regression. A child who is never falsely told by anyone that Santa exists, will never need to have that belief dispelled. The very same things are true for religious discussion.
It’s not even that I won’t listen anymore. It’s merely that where I am now, I starting to hear the same arguments repeatedly, to the point that I can regularly re-use counter-arguments.
You speak of behaviour you’d consider destructive, as if we’re talking about things a person chooses to be. We are not. Your god will judge me based on a set of a couple reasonable, and great very many arbitrary standards, obviously set for the convenience of those in power when they were written/last updated.
I hope you have your paradigm shift. Religions are born from human lies, and sometimes truths worshipped beyond reason. As such I will never see where people subscribing to them are “coming from”. I can understand, but never agree.
The very definition of faith is belief without evidence, and I have never met a religious person who claims to have evidence, who isn’t just interpreting circumstances, or mistaking their inner monologue for the voice of god.
How can you claim to love me, even as you accept a god that judges me deserving of literally infinite pain? If I am truly that bad, how can I possibly deserve your acceptance?
And if I’m not that bad, how can you be ok with worshipping a god, that so insanely arbitrarily, condemns someone you love?
You cannot save me. The only way out for me, in your belief system, is for your god to spare me. But you and me both know you don’t worship that kind of god.
“There’s no hate like christian love.”
How do you reconcile being a good person, with respecting other people’s beliefs, and not trying to convert people?
By your own system of belief, your inaction allows evil to reign.
I absolutely do blame religion for some the worst behaviours exhibited by believers, as it puts them in an impossible position.
If a genuine believer loves a non-believer, how can they be a good person within their own world view, if they do not try to save them?
But if they do try to save them, they will fail to be good person in the world view of the person they are trying to save.
You can’t do both, and as far as I can tell, most religions work this way.
To treat people with real respect believers universally have to engage in some of the most precarious double-think I can imagine.
It isn’t fair to anyone that you have to “suspend your disbelief” for reality the way we do for fiction, just to come across as a reasonable person.
I might be able to help here! Trying to save/convert someone can look a lot of different ways, but what almost never works is aggressively pursuing someone. The best way is to live by example and just engage in theological conversations when they come up, not by pushing but mainly by being curious and asking questions.
With this method it is quite easy to have friends from different belief systems. Everyone is on their own journey and sometimes it takes a lifetime, but being pushy is never a good option.
As long as you’re equally prepared to be deconverted.
I have argued theists into corners, and at that point they disengage, or begin to pick and choose what parts of what I’m saying they will acknowledge.
The problem for me, is that for me to let you be, I just need to be ok with you believeing in some things that aren’t real. As long as your conduct is acceptable and fair, I have no reason to intervene aside from a respect for truth.
Still, all religion is harmful, because belief in the unreal distorts reality, and impacts how you vote and make consequential decisions, affecting humanity as a whole. Individual behaviour is mostly benign, but as institutions religions are wrecking balls rolling through civilisation and history.
Even here you talk about how you wish to convince me by “living by example” as if religion provides something I would want, that I can’t have any other way. All it has to offer are lies, and I have refused to believe them. Nothing you can say or do is more convincing to me than whatever a Muslim, Hindu, or the ancient greeks, might say.
But still, to placate your own sense of guilt, you might pray for me. But then, you’re not letting me be. You’re not accepting the way I’ve chosen to live life. If you want god to intervene, you’ve rejected me, and my choice.
This is what “there is no hate like christian love” refers to. You will openly express love, while completely failing to understand that your beliefs reject parts of who some people are. You do not love us. You do not accept us. You feel like you do and you say that you do.
But all thats felt at the other end, is the rejection. The knowledge that someone who is supposed to care about you, deep in their heart, with the fiery passion of religious conviction, believes that something about the way you are, is so deeply wrong, that you deserve literal eternal punishment.
Do you have any idea how deeply that wounds?
This simple reality turns the love you feel and attempt to express for someone, into the most vile, abhorrent, twisted feeling of rejection it is possible to inflict on another. And the more you express it, the more it hurts. Some people kill themselves because of it.
Those of us who maintain friendships with you, simply ignore that part of how you feel. I can’t do it. I can’t be friends with someone who thinks I’ll go to hell for being me. They’ll never convert me, and if they are ok with that, I can barely stand being in the same room. And if they do try to convert me, refer back to my second paragraph.
How are you able to love me, and also let me be, even as you genuinely believe that “my journey” ends in eternal suffering? Or how can you expect me, to accept someone who can do that, as a genuinely good person?
About to be the first Lemmy comment I save. These points are so solid and never would have thought about.
Totally agreed on this point! To have a fruitful theological conversation, all parties ideally would have set aside emotion and bias in order to pursue the truth. That is much easier said then done, but is something I think we should all strive for.
You have included a lot more here than I have the time to respond to sadly (hopefully someone else will) but I’ll respond to your last point:
I can’t say I’m a genuinely good person, but I would say that it comes down to respecting the persons individual autonomy. For example, if I have a friend who has a habit that I consider destructive, I wouldn’t join them in the habit, but my love for them shouldn’t change. I would be sad that the trajectory (in my opinion) would end with suffering but as their friend, I should lead by example in what I think is a better life and keep hoping that they see where I’m coming from. Plus, maybe they will convince me the other way on this or other topics!
My general life philosophy is to question everything. You will either end up with a more solid foundation in what you believe or you will have one of those awesome paradigm shattering events. Either way though, an open mind is required and I’d encourage you to keep listening to those you disagree with. You may be surprised!
I’ve deconstructed theological “logic” to the point of boredom.
I can’t say as a secular thinker that I’m anything like “open-minded” to religion. I used to describe myself as agnostic, but that is a mere stop along a road to the truth of anti-theism.
And that road absolutely has a “wrong” direction. At this point, there is zero chance of anyone converting me. No-one has ever said a word to me that managed to shake that conviction even for a second. I’m at a point where I fail to see the point of religion even as a mere human institution of utility. All it seems to do is twist perception of reality en-masse, causing all the evil it does, and making all the good it does less efficient.
Both sides do not need to be open to convincing, for us to have a discussion about whether Santa exists. We can still talk about it even if one us knows he doesn’t. And I would consider an adult changing their mind on Santas non-existence, to be an obvious regression. A child who is never falsely told by anyone that Santa exists, will never need to have that belief dispelled. The very same things are true for religious discussion.
It’s not even that I won’t listen anymore. It’s merely that where I am now, I starting to hear the same arguments repeatedly, to the point that I can regularly re-use counter-arguments.
You speak of behaviour you’d consider destructive, as if we’re talking about things a person chooses to be. We are not. Your god will judge me based on a set of a couple reasonable, and great very many arbitrary standards, obviously set for the convenience of those in power when they were written/last updated.
I hope you have your paradigm shift. Religions are born from human lies, and sometimes truths worshipped beyond reason. As such I will never see where people subscribing to them are “coming from”. I can understand, but never agree.
The very definition of faith is belief without evidence, and I have never met a religious person who claims to have evidence, who isn’t just interpreting circumstances, or mistaking their inner monologue for the voice of god.
Let me put it in much fever words.
How can you claim to love me, even as you accept a god that judges me deserving of literally infinite pain? If I am truly that bad, how can I possibly deserve your acceptance?
And if I’m not that bad, how can you be ok with worshipping a god, that so insanely arbitrarily, condemns someone you love?
You cannot save me. The only way out for me, in your belief system, is for your god to spare me. But you and me both know you don’t worship that kind of god.
And if you’re not dogmatic you can pick and choose the beliefs you learn from friends that work best with your worldview.
I love learning about all the religions - one doesn’t have to believe in them to see their pros and cons.
Proselytization is against Judaism. Someone who follows Judaism properly would be meeting all of those points.
That’s not to say all Jews are following Judaism properly. glares at israel in contempt