I personally draw a distinction between “real” programming languages and scripting languages. Scripting languages being languages that are traditionally source distributed. They tend to be much easier to write, run slower, often but not always dynamically typed, and operate at a higher level than “real” programming languages. That’s not to say they aren’t actually useful or difficult to learn etc. It’s not a demeaning separation, just a useful categorization IMO. Not to say the categorization always holds water in all those attributes, luajit is way faster than Java but it does follow the other bits. As someone who loves C there are lots of languages that seem too limiting and high level, doesn’t mean they aren’t useful tho.
Yeah I agree, they are but I guess what I’m trying to get at is in day to day conversation I use “programming language” as a term for compiled languages hence “real” and “scripting language” for scripting languages. I never say “real” in conversation, just in the context of this post and as I mentioned it’s not to say scripting languages aren’t good languages, just how I separate them. Your distinction is much better in more comparative dialog such as this
That line is blurring to the point where it barely exists any more. Compiled languages are becoming increasingly dynamic (e.g. JIT compilation, code generation at runtime) and interpreted languages are getting compiled. JavaScript is a great example: V8 uses LLVM (a traditional compiler) to optimize and compile hot functions into machine code.
IMO the only definition of “real” programming language that makes any sense is a (Turing complete) language you can realistically build production systems with. Anything else is pointlessly pedantic or gatekeeping.
I’m aware of the increasing prevalence of JIT, that doesn’t change the other markers I listed. Ironically though the language the post is about, CPython still lacks JIT. Also I disagree in general, there are things scripting languages can’t do and will never be practical for. It’s not that they aren’t useful programming languages, that’s not what I’m saying but I think having a separate category for them is useful.
Scripting languages being languages that are traditionally source distributed.
Source distributed means you can read the source if it hasn’t been obfuscated. OTOH, it is trivial to decompile Java and C# so this isn’t a real difference for those languages (which happen to be compiled languages). So it’s only relevant for languages specifically compiled to machine code.
Source distributed means the recipient needs to install something. OTOH, Java and C#, again.
So the only ways that the distribution mechanism matter are really a difference between
How does the distribution mechanism matter beyond that? And even those points are
They tend to be much easier to write
I’m assuming you are not saying “real” languages should be hard to write…
run slower
Objective-C and Go run slower than C and they’re all compiled languages. Sure, an interpreter will be slower than a compiled language but modern languages aren’t simply interpreted (i.e. JIT, etc).
often but not always dynamically typed, and operate at a higher level
There are dynamically typed compiled languages, and high level compiled languages.
It’s not a demeaning separation, just a useful categorization IMO.
Calling one class of languages “real” and another class something else is inherently demeaning. I wouldn’t have cared enough to type this if you used “compiled vs scripting” instead of “real vs scripting”. Though I disagree with using “scripting” at all to describe a language since that’s an assertion of how you use the language, not of the language itself. “Interpreted” on the other hand is a descriptor of the language itself.
As someone who loves C there are lots of languages that seem too limiting and high level, doesn’t mean they aren’t useful tho.
I personally can’t stand Java because the language designers decided to remove ‘dangerous’ features like pointers and unsigned integers because apparently programmers are children who are incapable of handling the risk. On the other hand I love Go. It’s high level enough to be enjoyable and easy to write, but if you want to get into the weeds you can.
I personally draw a distinction between “real” programming languages and scripting languages. Scripting languages being languages that are traditionally source distributed. They tend to be much easier to write, run slower, often but not always dynamically typed, and operate at a higher level than “real” programming languages. That’s not to say they aren’t actually useful or difficult to learn etc. It’s not a demeaning separation, just a useful categorization IMO. Not to say the categorization always holds water in all those attributes, luajit is way faster than Java but it does follow the other bits. As someone who loves C there are lots of languages that seem too limiting and high level, doesn’t mean they aren’t useful tho.
Surely “compiled” Vs “scripting” langs is better than throwing around (at best) meaningless terms like “real”
Yeah I agree, they are but I guess what I’m trying to get at is in day to day conversation I use “programming language” as a term for compiled languages hence “real” and “scripting language” for scripting languages. I never say “real” in conversation, just in the context of this post and as I mentioned it’s not to say scripting languages aren’t good languages, just how I separate them. Your distinction is much better in more comparative dialog such as this
That line is blurring to the point where it barely exists any more. Compiled languages are becoming increasingly dynamic (e.g. JIT compilation, code generation at runtime) and interpreted languages are getting compiled. JavaScript is a great example: V8 uses LLVM (a traditional compiler) to optimize and compile hot functions into machine code.
IMO the only definition of “real” programming language that makes any sense is a (Turing complete) language you can realistically build production systems with. Anything else is pointlessly pedantic or gatekeeping.
I’m aware of the increasing prevalence of JIT, that doesn’t change the other markers I listed. Ironically though the language the post is about, CPython still lacks JIT. Also I disagree in general, there are things scripting languages can’t do and will never be practical for. It’s not that they aren’t useful programming languages, that’s not what I’m saying but I think having a separate category for them is useful.
So the only ways that the distribution mechanism matter are really a difference between How does the distribution mechanism matter beyond that? And even those points are
I’m assuming you are not saying “real” languages should be hard to write…
Objective-C and Go run slower than C and they’re all compiled languages. Sure, an interpreter will be slower than a compiled language but modern languages aren’t simply interpreted (i.e. JIT, etc).
There are dynamically typed compiled languages, and high level compiled languages.
Calling one class of languages “real” and another class something else is inherently demeaning. I wouldn’t have cared enough to type this if you used “compiled vs scripting” instead of “real vs scripting”. Though I disagree with using “scripting” at all to describe a language since that’s an assertion of how you use the language, not of the language itself. “Interpreted” on the other hand is a descriptor of the language itself.
I personally can’t stand Java because the language designers decided to remove ‘dangerous’ features like pointers and unsigned integers because apparently programmers are children who are incapable of handling the risk. On the other hand I love Go. It’s high level enough to be enjoyable and easy to write, but if you want to get into the weeds you can.