aha, this comment makes your position a bit more clear for me. reading your initial response had me feeling a bit kerfuffled because, for me and for the progressive people I know, the line is pretty clear as to what’s acceptable and what’s not- it comes down to whether someone is making an attempt to dehumanize others or defend those actions in others. there’s SO much effort being made to paint the position of “the left” as anything and everything else, but it really does boil down to standing for the humanity and dignity of others. when our poorest, weakest, most vulnerable members of society can thrive, we all thrive. it’s important to recognize beliefs that are trying to masquerade as that when they’re really something else altogether.
in other words, I think it’s important to really get at what a belief is about. I wouldn’t call that automatic pushback against men’s rights and supporting men progressive or left wing, tbh. you’re so right that there is a ton of automatic pushback on the part of a lot of people because they assume men’s rights = the typical MRA misogyny. misandry is woven into so much of that response and people don’t necessarily consider how they’re hurting others in an extremely similar way when they embrace that narrative. the conversation around how to support men does get so toxic so quickly for a few reasons, yet it’s not the zero-sum game many people treat it as. the reality is, men can be subject to things like domestic violence and rape too, and they deserve support just like anyone else in those situations. at a fundamental level, supporting men in these situations isn’t the threat to women and others that a ton of people treat it as in their knee-jerk reaction to the topic. these hard topics deserve discussion and consideration too, but often the reactions we’re talking about, that pushback, doesn’t come from a place of offering respect and dignity. and that’s not very “left wing”, so to speak.
I think because I’m queer, pan specifically, there’s a sort of odd sort of advantage in this regard in being exposed to situations where calling out regressive beliefs that masquerade as progressive happens a bit more frequently. there are pleeeenty of examples of this in queer spaces- misogyny from gay men, misandry from gay and bi women (honestly, in my experience the latter has been MORE problematic in that regard, but I’m keenly aware that’s my own experience and maybe not that of others), TERF & LBG-but-not-the-T groups, and bi erasure are all queer examples of this that are encountered, sadly, not infrequently. Pride is meant to be a radical celebration of people living their life to the fullest as their true self, and it’s so often not, instead bogged down by division, othering, and sometimes downright hatred. There are unfortunately a lot of people out there who treat their own queerness as a zero-sum game where breaking the mould and being different is seen as a threat to their own existence because that’s just how their belief system works. People don’t necessarily want to think of themselves as regressive in their beliefs, but when they’re pushing a narrative of misinformation or hate, it’s so, so important to recognize and call out that bullshit for exactly what it is- it’s not left-wing, it’s not progressive, it’s a defense of a status quo that harms others.
Outside of queer spaces, you might not get as much exposure to digging at problematic viewpoints like that, to the pushback that happens to that reaction you’re talking about. It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking “both sides” when you have these anecdotes of harm, but when you really dig into the beliefs, it’s really not both sides, at all. It’s important to call out regressive beliefs for what they are, it’s important to identify a hateful belief as such, and it takes so much courage to do that when those voices are screaming at you and over you from different directions. I hope you know, this queer gal sees you and what you’re advocating for when it comes to supporting men who face harm, and supports you in that.
aha, this comment makes your position a bit more clear for me. reading your initial response had me feeling a bit kerfuffled because, for me and for the progressive people I know, the line is pretty clear as to what’s acceptable and what’s not- it comes down to whether someone is making an attempt to dehumanize others or defend those actions in others. there’s SO much effort being made to paint the position of “the left” as anything and everything else, but it really does boil down to standing for the humanity and dignity of others. when our poorest, weakest, most vulnerable members of society can thrive, we all thrive. it’s important to recognize beliefs that are trying to masquerade as that when they’re really something else altogether.
in other words, I think it’s important to really get at what a belief is about. I wouldn’t call that automatic pushback against men’s rights and supporting men progressive or left wing, tbh. you’re so right that there is a ton of automatic pushback on the part of a lot of people because they assume men’s rights = the typical MRA misogyny. misandry is woven into so much of that response and people don’t necessarily consider how they’re hurting others in an extremely similar way when they embrace that narrative. the conversation around how to support men does get so toxic so quickly for a few reasons, yet it’s not the zero-sum game many people treat it as. the reality is, men can be subject to things like domestic violence and rape too, and they deserve support just like anyone else in those situations. at a fundamental level, supporting men in these situations isn’t the threat to women and others that a ton of people treat it as in their knee-jerk reaction to the topic. these hard topics deserve discussion and consideration too, but often the reactions we’re talking about, that pushback, doesn’t come from a place of offering respect and dignity. and that’s not very “left wing”, so to speak.
I think because I’m queer, pan specifically, there’s a sort of odd sort of advantage in this regard in being exposed to situations where calling out regressive beliefs that masquerade as progressive happens a bit more frequently. there are pleeeenty of examples of this in queer spaces- misogyny from gay men, misandry from gay and bi women (honestly, in my experience the latter has been MORE problematic in that regard, but I’m keenly aware that’s my own experience and maybe not that of others), TERF & LBG-but-not-the-T groups, and bi erasure are all queer examples of this that are encountered, sadly, not infrequently. Pride is meant to be a radical celebration of people living their life to the fullest as their true self, and it’s so often not, instead bogged down by division, othering, and sometimes downright hatred. There are unfortunately a lot of people out there who treat their own queerness as a zero-sum game where breaking the mould and being different is seen as a threat to their own existence because that’s just how their belief system works. People don’t necessarily want to think of themselves as regressive in their beliefs, but when they’re pushing a narrative of misinformation or hate, it’s so, so important to recognize and call out that bullshit for exactly what it is- it’s not left-wing, it’s not progressive, it’s a defense of a status quo that harms others.
Outside of queer spaces, you might not get as much exposure to digging at problematic viewpoints like that, to the pushback that happens to that reaction you’re talking about. It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking “both sides” when you have these anecdotes of harm, but when you really dig into the beliefs, it’s really not both sides, at all. It’s important to call out regressive beliefs for what they are, it’s important to identify a hateful belief as such, and it takes so much courage to do that when those voices are screaming at you and over you from different directions. I hope you know, this queer gal sees you and what you’re advocating for when it comes to supporting men who face harm, and supports you in that.