They went aggressive defense, after the effects of WW2. They built an impressive machine to both keep themselves safe (by all means necessary) and hunt down Nazis who fled into hiding.
Unfortunately, they ran out of targets, on the nazi front, and really pissed off their neighbours. Rather than risk de-escalating, they’ve gone all-in.
The intergenerational changeover, and the political games that entailed lead to the current situation.
Stare too long into the abyss, and the abyss will stare back into you.
Give it a break. One of Israel’s staunchest allies since the start was West Germany - which enthusiastically co-operated with Israel while Israel was fully aware that it’s intelligence services were jam-packed with nazis. Israel only hunted the nazis that were convenient to hunt.
The ones working for west Germany, as well as America weren’t hiding, they were useful. Their targets were the one who were useless alive for anything other than getting revenge against.
The key is they had a good excuse to build a highly effective surveillance and infiltration system. It also was/is skilled at getting their hands dirty on foreign soil, while keeping the mess contained. At the time, they have a worthy target. As time went on, the number of targets dropped. The system in place was then turned to other uses.
I always see historical fallacy being used to suit their own biases and frankly I am getting tired of it. While many Nazis and collaborators weren’t prosecuted, and they should have been, did West Germany still have laws prosecuting Jews and other minorities after the war? The fact that you will be prosecuted for doing Nazi salutes and symbols in Germany says a lot. Post-war Germany is not the same as Nazi Germany as evidence show, for crying out loud.
I know Lemmy is as left leaning as Reddit, but as a left leaning minority myself, these shoehorning and virtue signaling from the left is cringey af.
After the war, discrimination against Roma continued all over Europe. The courts in the Federal Republic of Germany determined that all measures taken against Roma before 1943 were legitimate official measures against persons committing criminal acts, not the result of policy driven by racial prejudice. This decision effectively closed the door to restitution for thousands of Roma victims, who had been incarcerated, forcibly sterilized, and deported out of Germany for no specific crime. The postwar police authorities took over the research files of the Nazi regime, including the registry of Roma who had resided in the Greater German Reich, and police harassment and discrimination continued.
Only in late 1965 did the West German compensation law explicitly acknowledge that the acts of persecution that took place before 1943 were racially motivated, creating eligibility for most Roma to apply for compensation for their suffering and loss under the Nazi regime. By this time, many of those who became eligible had already died. In March 1982 Federal Chancellor, Helmut Schmidt, formally stated that German Roma had been victims of genocide.
I guess it’s true what they say… underneath the liberal 1st world pretensions it’s still the same old Europe.
Let’s be clear on one thing… the nazis were not some “aberration” - the predatory and parasitic socio-economic systems that enabled and nurtured them is still very much alive and kicking in (so-called) “western civilization.”
Interesting, I hadn’t realised that. Thanks for sharing. It did take a long time for Germany to come to terms with their past. It was the children and grandchildren of the war generation who fully acknowledges and admit of the atrocities.
But even so, that hasn’t really got to do with Germany somehow influencing Israeli state’s policies, unless there is evidence to show for.
It did take a long time for Germany to come to terms with their past.
Have they?
Germany is still controlled by the same kind of capitalists that funded the nazis to protect them from working-class revolt. Germany is still controlled by the same kind of politicians that gave up power to the nazis out of political expediency. Germany went from being a fascist state to enabling another pretty darn obvious one - Israel.
No, I think Germany has no more “come to terms with it’s past” than any other colonizer state.
But even so, that hasn’t really got to do with Germany somehow influencing Israeli
Germany aiding and abetting a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonial state has got nothing to do with this?
Germany is still controlled by the same kind of capitalists that funded the nazis to protect them from working-class revolt. Germany is still controlled by the same kind of politicians that gave up power to the nazis out of political expediency. Germany went from being a fascist state to enabling another pretty darn obvious one - Israel.
Another leftist overreaching and attribution bias that make my eyes roll everytime. Just because a society is capitalist it doesn’t mean they’re Nazis. Norway and Denmark are capitalists albeit have very strong social protections and regulations. Germany is similar. Fascism has a specific meaning than just “capitalist”. Just because you don’t like something, you just can’t call it “fascist.” Germany isn’t perfect but by no means they are still Nazis or fascists. They accepted refugees en masse, second to Sweden. How does that sound like Nazi to you?
Germany aiding and abetting a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonial state has got nothing to do with this?
And this is another case of oversimplifying complex issues and requires a lot of unpacking. It’s a chicken or egg scenario. There are those who agreed to the creation of Israeli state, but then there are those who hasn’t-- which led to the conflict as it were now. Israel did not start as a fascist state-- they have been ruled by a left-wing party in the first half of their existence. But tensions and refusal by Arab states to recognise Israel put Israelis into a siege mentality. This created a cycle of violence as Israel turned to become more vengeful and right-wing due to the past conflicts and invasion. Eventually, and at the very least, Arab states came to terms that Israel is here to stay. However, more radical Muslim Arab paramilitary factions are still prodding Israel. The latest of that prodding is from Hamas.
Now, of course, as the UN secretary general said, Hamas violence did not start in a vacuum. Israel had been treating Palestinians as second class citizens. But it’s also because Israel have developed a siege mentality for aforementioned reasons, which they retaliate in return but also makes Palestinians seek vengeance in return as well. And the cycle of revanchism continues. “An eye of an eye makes us all blind”, and that is precisely what is happening. This, however, does not excuse Hamas attack on October 7, nor Israel’s treatment of Palestinians.
However, even with all that, Israel is still far from being a fascist in spite of the military supremacy in the region. Being far-right or right-wing does not mean they’re fascist. They still have election and Netanyahu’s party is actually unpopular and clings dearly to forming coalitions. Israel is still open to negotiations and as a matter of fact-- before the Hamas attack in October 7, there was meant to be a deal to be signed between Saudi and Israel for closer cooperation in exchange to unequivocally giving up occupied settlements in West Bank. But Hamas derailed that at the last minute with their attack. I bet you did not hear that? That being said, Israel is far from being a fascist because they still allow elections and decorum (until debatably recently which I will get to that later). Fascists don’t do that as they would limit free and fair elections. Fascism has more specific criteria than just being capitalist or anything you don’t like. I suggest you read on Umberto Eco’s 14 characteristics of fascism instead of just throwing labels.
While I do not agree with providing Israel more aid (they received more than enough in all these years), attributing Germany as still “nazi” or “fascist” simply because they help Israel does not make Germany “fascist”. And by the way, the FT article you linked is one month and a half old, before Israel’s fascistic behaviour in invading Gaza strip. So, Germany gave aid to Israel before the invasion of Gaza so they could not have known how Israel would do. This does not make Germany fascist. You could accuse these countries too as fascist for supporting Israel for being invaded. Throwing labels willy nilly on something you don’t like and don’t know the meaning, dilutes the meaning and significance of the term. It’s not intellectually productive and is lazy. This is what Slavoj Zizek have railed against with liberals and left just throwing buzzwords.
overreaching and attribution bias that make my eyes roll everytime.
Roll your eyes until they’re doing somersaults, Clyde… capitalism doesn’t cease working the way it works just because you find it’s thoroughly predicted outcomes inconvenient for the fairy tale you wish you were existing in.
They accepted refugees en masse, second to Sweden.
Gee… how is that whole “see no fascism, hear no fascism, speak no fascism” thing working out for you?
Israel did not start as a fascist state
Riiiiight… white supremacist settler-colonialism and fascism are totally not so intimately and indelibly linked that it’s almost impossible to tell where one starts and the other ends, eh Clyde?
It’s not as if the uber-examples of fascist states we have were all frustrated colonizers, or the fact that the most prolific sponsor of fascist terrorism in world history also happens to be the world’s most prolific neocolonialist.
Yep… pure coincidence all round, Clyde.
Israel is still far from being a fascist
Right… they can’t be fascist if you so desperately want them to be the “good guys,” right?
But Hamas derailed that at the last minute with their attack.
Oh, of course… it’s all the Palestinians’ fault, right? And if Jewish people would just have stopped with their nasty “Jewish-Bolshevism” Hitler wouldn’t have been forced into perpetrating the Holocaust, right?
What else do you have for me, apologist?
I suggest you read on Umberto Eco’s 14 characteristics of fascism instead of just throwing labels.
Oh, I’m very familiar with Eco’s little list - it’s a perfectly flawed and dangerous misunderstanding of what fascism really is. But liberals love it because Eco treats fascism as some kind of aberration to liberals’ precious little classical liberal nation-state - which is why people like you cannot recognize it when it is literally staring you in the face.
So, Germany gave aid to Israel before the invasion of Gaza
Sooooo… Germany gave aid to a white supremacist settler-colonialist state before said white supremacist settler-colonialist state did the very thing white supremacist settler-colonialist states always do?
Slavoj Zizek
Could you actually quote somebody less irrelevant?
We’re talking about post-war Germany. Are CDU and SDF, both parties that have ruled Germany after World War 2, far-right? The rise of modern German far right is way after Germany accepted refugees in 2015. You’re just showing that anyone you don’t agree with is fascist by shoehorning after the fact examples that you miscontrue to fit your bias. If this is a court of law, it will not go down well for you. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it seems to me you have no idea about international politics or politics in general. Come back when you know more.
Riiiiight… white supremacist settler-colonialism and fascism are totally not so intimately and indelibly linked that it’s almost impossible to tell where one starts and the other ends, eh Clyde?
Palestine did agree initially, but then there was a civil war among Palestinians afterwards. If you actually know history you would know, but instead you keep parroting the same talking points.
But Hamas derailed that at the last minute with their attack.
Oh, of course… it’s all the Palestinians’ fault, right? And if Jewish people would just have stopped with their nasty “Jewish-Bolshevism” Hitler wouldn’t have been forced into perpetrating the Holocaust, right?
Well now, as I suspected, so you weren’t aware that Israel was going to give up settlements in West Bank, as demanded by Saudi Arabia as part of the deal? If you just get out of your naive lefty bubble, you would know. And it seems to me that you’re not acknowledging Hamas as a terror group despite taking foreign nationals as hostages? Am I reading that right? I never blamed Palestinians. Are you aware that Hamas does not mean Palestinians?
It is easy for someone to parse complicated and tangled mess with simple narrative and bitesize without seeing the full picture, because the average human brain-- stil unevolved from our lizard ancestors-- could not cope with massive amount of information and resort to heuristics. Go watch the video explaining the run up before Hamas attack, when Israel and Saudi were about sign a deal, part of which Israel was going to give up occupied settlements. Or if it is tldr for you, here is a9 minute run down.
Oh, I’m very familiar with Eco’s little list - it’s a perfectly flawed and dangerous misunderstanding of what fascism really is. But liberals love it because Eco treats fascism as some kind of aberration to liberals’ precious little classical liberal nation-state - which is why people like you cannot recognize it when it is literally staring you in the face.
Eco and other’s have overlap on what they consider to be fascist. Is Germany militaristic and ultranationalist after World War 2 despite budget cuts on the military and taboo if one proclaims to be nationalist? They allowed Turkish migrants after World War 2 to fill labour shortage. How does that even sound fascist to you? You just want to call anyone you don’t like fascist. Because for you it is easy to stereotype because it doesn’t involve much thinking.
Slavoj Zizek is perfectly relevant. Because the left has a certain naivete and blindspot with their worldview, which he has commented upon.
They went aggressive defense, after the effects of WW2. They built an impressive machine to both keep themselves safe (by all means necessary) and hunt down Nazis who fled into hiding.
Unfortunately, they ran out of targets, on the nazi front, and really pissed off their neighbours. Rather than risk de-escalating, they’ve gone all-in.
The intergenerational changeover, and the political games that entailed lead to the current situation.
Stare too long into the abyss, and the abyss will stare back into you.
The trick is to wait until the abyss stares back, and to smile at it.
EDIT: My bad, I thought this was from another Israel Palestine thread I roped myself into.
I feel bad for everyone involved though.
Depressingly, that sums up what the Israeli intelligence/security did.
That tactic, sadly, seems to work. Worked for Russia too. Not a moral prescriptive observation, but a descriptive one.
Give it a break. One of Israel’s staunchest allies since the start was West Germany - which enthusiastically co-operated with Israel while Israel was fully aware that it’s intelligence services were jam-packed with nazis. Israel only hunted the nazis that were convenient to hunt.
Birds of a feather and all that.
The ones working for west Germany, as well as America weren’t hiding, they were useful. Their targets were the one who were useless alive for anything other than getting revenge against.
The key is they had a good excuse to build a highly effective surveillance and infiltration system. It also was/is skilled at getting their hands dirty on foreign soil, while keeping the mess contained. At the time, they have a worthy target. As time went on, the number of targets dropped. The system in place was then turned to other uses.
I always see historical fallacy being used to suit their own biases and frankly I am getting tired of it. While many Nazis and collaborators weren’t prosecuted, and they should have been, did West Germany still have laws prosecuting Jews and other minorities after the war? The fact that you will be prosecuted for doing Nazi salutes and symbols in Germany says a lot. Post-war Germany is not the same as Nazi Germany as evidence show, for crying out loud.
I know Lemmy is as left leaning as Reddit, but as a left leaning minority myself, these shoehorning and virtue signaling from the left is cringey af.
Funny you should mention that…
I guess it’s true what they say… underneath the liberal 1st world pretensions it’s still the same old Europe.
Let’s be clear on one thing… the nazis were not some “aberration” - the predatory and parasitic socio-economic systems that enabled and nurtured them is still very much alive and kicking in (so-called) “western civilization.”
Interesting, I hadn’t realised that. Thanks for sharing. It did take a long time for Germany to come to terms with their past. It was the children and grandchildren of the war generation who fully acknowledges and admit of the atrocities. But even so, that hasn’t really got to do with Germany somehow influencing Israeli state’s policies, unless there is evidence to show for.
Have they?
Germany is still controlled by the same kind of capitalists that funded the nazis to protect them from working-class revolt. Germany is still controlled by the same kind of politicians that gave up power to the nazis out of political expediency. Germany went from being a fascist state to enabling another pretty darn obvious one - Israel.
No, I think Germany has no more “come to terms with it’s past” than any other colonizer state.
Germany aiding and abetting a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonial state has got nothing to do with this?
Nothing at all, eh?
Another leftist overreaching and attribution bias that make my eyes roll everytime. Just because a society is capitalist it doesn’t mean they’re Nazis. Norway and Denmark are capitalists albeit have very strong social protections and regulations. Germany is similar. Fascism has a specific meaning than just “capitalist”. Just because you don’t like something, you just can’t call it “fascist.” Germany isn’t perfect but by no means they are still Nazis or fascists. They accepted refugees en masse, second to Sweden. How does that sound like Nazi to you?
And this is another case of oversimplifying complex issues and requires a lot of unpacking. It’s a chicken or egg scenario. There are those who agreed to the creation of Israeli state, but then there are those who hasn’t-- which led to the conflict as it were now. Israel did not start as a fascist state-- they have been ruled by a left-wing party in the first half of their existence. But tensions and refusal by Arab states to recognise Israel put Israelis into a siege mentality. This created a cycle of violence as Israel turned to become more vengeful and right-wing due to the past conflicts and invasion. Eventually, and at the very least, Arab states came to terms that Israel is here to stay. However, more radical Muslim Arab paramilitary factions are still prodding Israel. The latest of that prodding is from Hamas.
Now, of course, as the UN secretary general said, Hamas violence did not start in a vacuum. Israel had been treating Palestinians as second class citizens. But it’s also because Israel have developed a siege mentality for aforementioned reasons, which they retaliate in return but also makes Palestinians seek vengeance in return as well. And the cycle of revanchism continues. “An eye of an eye makes us all blind”, and that is precisely what is happening. This, however, does not excuse Hamas attack on October 7, nor Israel’s treatment of Palestinians.
However, even with all that, Israel is still far from being a fascist in spite of the military supremacy in the region. Being far-right or right-wing does not mean they’re fascist. They still have election and Netanyahu’s party is actually unpopular and clings dearly to forming coalitions. Israel is still open to negotiations and as a matter of fact-- before the Hamas attack in October 7, there was meant to be a deal to be signed between Saudi and Israel for closer cooperation in exchange to unequivocally giving up occupied settlements in West Bank. But Hamas derailed that at the last minute with their attack. I bet you did not hear that? That being said, Israel is far from being a fascist because they still allow elections and decorum (until debatably recently which I will get to that later). Fascists don’t do that as they would limit free and fair elections. Fascism has more specific criteria than just being capitalist or anything you don’t like. I suggest you read on Umberto Eco’s 14 characteristics of fascism instead of just throwing labels.
While I do not agree with providing Israel more aid (they received more than enough in all these years), attributing Germany as still “nazi” or “fascist” simply because they help Israel does not make Germany “fascist”. And by the way, the FT article you linked is one month and a half old, before Israel’s fascistic behaviour in invading Gaza strip. So, Germany gave aid to Israel before the invasion of Gaza so they could not have known how Israel would do. This does not make Germany fascist. You could accuse these countries too as fascist for supporting Israel for being invaded. Throwing labels willy nilly on something you don’t like and don’t know the meaning, dilutes the meaning and significance of the term. It’s not intellectually productive and is lazy. This is what Slavoj Zizek have railed against with liberals and left just throwing buzzwords.
Roll your eyes until they’re doing somersaults, Clyde… capitalism doesn’t cease working the way it works just because you find it’s thoroughly predicted outcomes inconvenient for the fairy tale you wish you were existing in.
Are you referring to this, Clyde?
Gee… how is that whole “see no fascism, hear no fascism, speak no fascism” thing working out for you?
Riiiiight… white supremacist settler-colonialism and fascism are totally not so intimately and indelibly linked that it’s almost impossible to tell where one starts and the other ends, eh Clyde?
It’s not as if the uber-examples of fascist states we have were all frustrated colonizers, or the fact that the most prolific sponsor of fascist terrorism in world history also happens to be the world’s most prolific neocolonialist.
Yep… pure coincidence all round, Clyde.
Right… they can’t be fascist if you so desperately want them to be the “good guys,” right?
Oh, of course… it’s all the Palestinians’ fault, right? And if Jewish people would just have stopped with their nasty “Jewish-Bolshevism” Hitler wouldn’t have been forced into perpetrating the Holocaust, right?
What else do you have for me, apologist?
Oh, I’m very familiar with Eco’s little list - it’s a perfectly flawed and dangerous misunderstanding of what fascism really is. But liberals love it because Eco treats fascism as some kind of aberration to liberals’ precious little classical liberal nation-state - which is why people like you cannot recognize it when it is literally staring you in the face.
Sooooo… Germany gave aid to a white supremacist settler-colonialist state before said white supremacist settler-colonialist state did the very thing white supremacist settler-colonialist states always do?
Could you actually quote somebody less irrelevant?
We’re talking about post-war Germany. Are CDU and SDF, both parties that have ruled Germany after World War 2, far-right? The rise of modern German far right is way after Germany accepted refugees in 2015. You’re just showing that anyone you don’t agree with is fascist by shoehorning after the fact examples that you miscontrue to fit your bias. If this is a court of law, it will not go down well for you. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it seems to me you have no idea about international politics or politics in general. Come back when you know more.
Riiiiight… white supremacist settler-colonialism and fascism are totally not so intimately and indelibly linked that it’s almost impossible to tell where one starts and the other ends, eh Clyde?
Palestine did agree initially, but then there was a civil war among Palestinians afterwards. If you actually know history you would know, but instead you keep parroting the same talking points.
Well now, as I suspected, so you weren’t aware that Israel was going to give up settlements in West Bank, as demanded by Saudi Arabia as part of the deal? If you just get out of your naive lefty bubble, you would know. And it seems to me that you’re not acknowledging Hamas as a terror group despite taking foreign nationals as hostages? Am I reading that right? I never blamed Palestinians. Are you aware that Hamas does not mean Palestinians?
It is easy for someone to parse complicated and tangled mess with simple narrative and bitesize without seeing the full picture, because the average human brain-- stil unevolved from our lizard ancestors-- could not cope with massive amount of information and resort to heuristics. Go watch the video explaining the run up before Hamas attack, when Israel and Saudi were about sign a deal, part of which Israel was going to give up occupied settlements. Or if it is tldr for you, here is a9 minute run down.
Eco and other’s have overlap on what they consider to be fascist. Is Germany militaristic and ultranationalist after World War 2 despite budget cuts on the military and taboo if one proclaims to be nationalist? They allowed Turkish migrants after World War 2 to fill labour shortage. How does that even sound fascist to you? You just want to call anyone you don’t like fascist. Because for you it is easy to stereotype because it doesn’t involve much thinking.
Slavoj Zizek is perfectly relevant. Because the left has a certain naivete and blindspot with their worldview, which he has commented upon.