Israel is not “Jewish people”. Israel “could” end without a single Jew dying. Also, Jews lived there when it was Palestine. I dunno did they die when it became Israel? How are you arriving at the end of a concept being mass murder?
I think if Israel stopped trying to run itself as an ethnostate they’d be fine. I think there’s an argument that the “concept” of what currently constitutes Israel may be too tainted to realistically save. Many unwilling to admit fault, apologize, and return what was stolen. And many unwilling to forgive them for doing it. It would take real concession and change. Something those in charge don’t want. So the people both Israeli and Palestinian will continue to suffer for the gains of wealthy genocidal bigots.
Many Palestinians were killed or died in the transition when Israel was established.
I agree with you that Israel needs to change, and that they aren’t going to change unless they are forced to change. But the Jewish people living in Israel will not leave peacefully. To “end” Israel is to kill a lot of Jewish people living there.
And the antisemites are counting on everyone making a distinction between the two.
I removed it, thinking that I had phrased it indelicately. The main point of the comment was a link to the Deir Yassin massacre, and maybe I’ll just leave it at that.
Well, at least absent a secular awakening in the middle east. And that is the real issue here in my view, and I’m not sure why so many people seem to be giving a pass to the extremist elephant in the room here.
There is a difference between possible and likely. And you my friend are misrepresenting the two. It is 100% possible. But it also is unlikely because of all the genocidal ethno statists.
We already saw on October 7th what ordinary Palestinians would do to Jews if given the opportunity.
If the IDF hadn’t (belatedly) put a stop to them, they’d have carried on raping and killing until every last Jew in Israel was dead.
The only hope is that, after this war is over, a comprehensive Denazification programme is implemented in Gaza and the West Bank as well as a Marshall Plan for the reconstruction of Gaza, just like with Nazi Germany. The antisemitism is too deep-seated, widespread, and fundamental to contemporary Palestinian identity to go away by itself.
Can you be any more disingenuous? Hamas does not represent all of Palestinians. Israel does not represent all Jews. And yes October 7th was not good. But it’s awful telling that your timeline of atrocity starts there. And not the thousands upon thousands that were murdered by IDF and Israeli forces before that.
Neither group is good. Neither group is innocent. But Israel really needs to stop acting like a victim. It’s not believable.
No, not all, just almost all. 72% endorse the October 7th Holocaust. Support in the West Bank for Hamas has tripled since that date – 52% of Gazans and 85% of West Bank residents support Hamas’ actions in the war. Reuters.
That’s why a Denazification process of Palestinian territories is necessary. Antisemitism is almost hardwired into them, from school textbooks to television, and it needs to be deprogrammed.
And yes October 7th was not good.
Jaw-dropping understatement. Have you seen what they did? It wasn’t just “not good”, it’s one of the most profoundly evil, cruel and barbaric atrocities of the modern era which.
But it’s awful telling that your timeline of atrocity starts there. And not the thousands upon thousands that were murdered by IDF and Israeli forces before that.
I’m very familiar with the history of Israel and Palestine. This war was spurred by October 7th. How many of those thousands were terrorists? Not all, of course, but Israel doesn’t just get off on killing innocent people. Hamas have had total control since Israel left Gaza in 2005, removed all their settlements, and gave them elections. What happened? They voted for Hamas, trashed the place, and spent all of the international aid money on weapons to kill Jews with not a single bomb shelter for their own citizens.
Neither group is good. Neither group is innocent. But Israel really needs to stop acting like a victim. It’s not believable.
The idea that Hamas and Israel are remotely comparable is contemptuous.
You think that might be because of the genocide Israel is perpetrating? I know you’d never admit that. But that’s the reason. And I don’t necessarily blame them. When you have two monsters. You tend to side with the lesser of the two. Really ironic calling Hamas the lesser of two monsters. But it’s true. Despite all the people they killed on October 7th, the number of people the IDF and Israel has killed before and since absolutely dwarf it. It’s exponentially more. Neither one is good. Israel is worse.
You think that might be because of the genocide Israel is perpetrating?
No
I know you’d never admit that. But that’s the reason.
It’s not the reason. The reason is because Hamas were very successful at raping, slaughtering, and burning every Jew they could get their hands on on October 7th.
And I don’t necessarily blame them.
Vague words to evade stating clearly your belief that October 7th was justified.
There are videos of Palestinian children doing a school play about slaughtering Israelis. And these ffers pretend that you’ve got innocents all around.
Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005. Not one settler, not one Israeli police station or IDF base. They had an election, and elected Hamas.
Funnily enough, you are in fact following Fascist logic by repeating Hitler’s theory that Jews, even when they’re absent, in fact control others from behind the scenes in dark hallways.
>you are in fact following Fascist logic by repeating Hitler’s theory that Jews, even when they’re absent, in fact control others from behind the scenes in dark hallways.
no, they’re not. how could Israel cut power and water to Gaza unless they controlled it?
Gaza has been under defacto Israeli control, even according to the Israeli supreme court, they control everything that gets in or out (yes even on the Egyptian crossing and a complete naval blockade), one of the big reasons Hamas exists is aid given to them by the Netanyahu government literally getting rid of secular oppositional groups and working with Hamas over the PA.
there are many worlds where the abolition of Israel wouldn’t result in the deaths of Jewish people, unless you swallow the fascist dichotomy of “Israel is the only safe place for Jews” and “Israel is inherently in danger, due to group X”
The history of this region proves this to not be the case though. Jews have mostly been chased out of the region a few times with many dead left in the wake.
Jews did not live peacefully before the British mandate ended, there’s a long list of pogroms and assaults leading to many dead in the hundreds of years leading up to the UN establishment of the state.
It would be great if they could live peacefully but history shows that’s a risk they can’t take.
Israel is not “Jewish people”. Israel “could” end without a single Jew dying. Also, Jews lived there when it was Palestine. I dunno did they die when it became Israel? How are you arriving at the end of a concept being mass murder?
I think if Israel stopped trying to run itself as an ethnostate they’d be fine. I think there’s an argument that the “concept” of what currently constitutes Israel may be too tainted to realistically save. Many unwilling to admit fault, apologize, and return what was stolen. And many unwilling to forgive them for doing it. It would take real concession and change. Something those in charge don’t want. So the people both Israeli and Palestinian will continue to suffer for the gains of wealthy genocidal bigots.
Many Palestinians were killed or died in the transition when Israel was established.
I agree with you that Israel needs to change, and that they aren’t going to change unless they are forced to change. But the Jewish people living in Israel will not leave peacefully. To “end” Israel is to kill a lot of Jewish people living there.
And the antisemites are counting on everyone making a distinction between the two.
deleted by creator
I can’t seem to find this comment on your user page or anywhere else on lemmy.world
I removed it, thinking that I had phrased it indelicately. The main point of the comment was a link to the Deir Yassin massacre, and maybe I’ll just leave it at that.
There’s no scenario, in any possible world, in which the ‘abolition’ of Israel doesn’t result in the deaths of millions of Jews.
Well, at least absent a secular awakening in the middle east. And that is the real issue here in my view, and I’m not sure why so many people seem to be giving a pass to the extremist elephant in the room here.
There is a difference between possible and likely. And you my friend are misrepresenting the two. It is 100% possible. But it also is unlikely because of all the genocidal ethno statists.
We already saw on October 7th what ordinary Palestinians would do to Jews if given the opportunity.
If the IDF hadn’t (belatedly) put a stop to them, they’d have carried on raping and killing until every last Jew in Israel was dead.
The only hope is that, after this war is over, a comprehensive Denazification programme is implemented in Gaza and the West Bank as well as a Marshall Plan for the reconstruction of Gaza, just like with Nazi Germany. The antisemitism is too deep-seated, widespread, and fundamental to contemporary Palestinian identity to go away by itself.
Can you be any more disingenuous? Hamas does not represent all of Palestinians. Israel does not represent all Jews. And yes October 7th was not good. But it’s awful telling that your timeline of atrocity starts there. And not the thousands upon thousands that were murdered by IDF and Israeli forces before that.
Neither group is good. Neither group is innocent. But Israel really needs to stop acting like a victim. It’s not believable.
No, not all, just almost all. 72% endorse the October 7th Holocaust. Support in the West Bank for Hamas has tripled since that date – 52% of Gazans and 85% of West Bank residents support Hamas’ actions in the war. Reuters.
That’s why a Denazification process of Palestinian territories is necessary. Antisemitism is almost hardwired into them, from school textbooks to television, and it needs to be deprogrammed.
Jaw-dropping understatement. Have you seen what they did? It wasn’t just “not good”, it’s one of the most profoundly evil, cruel and barbaric atrocities of the modern era which.
I’m very familiar with the history of Israel and Palestine. This war was spurred by October 7th. How many of those thousands were terrorists? Not all, of course, but Israel doesn’t just get off on killing innocent people. Hamas have had total control since Israel left Gaza in 2005, removed all their settlements, and gave them elections. What happened? They voted for Hamas, trashed the place, and spent all of the international aid money on weapons to kill Jews with not a single bomb shelter for their own citizens.
The idea that Hamas and Israel are remotely comparable is contemptuous.
You think that might be because of the genocide Israel is perpetrating? I know you’d never admit that. But that’s the reason. And I don’t necessarily blame them. When you have two monsters. You tend to side with the lesser of the two. Really ironic calling Hamas the lesser of two monsters. But it’s true. Despite all the people they killed on October 7th, the number of people the IDF and Israel has killed before and since absolutely dwarf it. It’s exponentially more. Neither one is good. Israel is worse.
No
It’s not the reason. The reason is because Hamas were very successful at raping, slaughtering, and burning every Jew they could get their hands on on October 7th.
Vague words to evade stating clearly your belief that October 7th was justified.
Speechless.
Look when I asked if you could be any more disingenuous that was a rhetorical question, not a request.
There are videos of Palestinian children doing a school play about slaughtering Israelis. And these ffers pretend that you’ve got innocents all around.
Don’t worry, I’m sure a few more Jew-haters will be over in a minute to tell you you’re wrong.
no oct. 7th was Hamas, the 70-year-long occupation and pogroms in the west bank, is what all Jews would do…
oh wait, I don’t follow fascist logic
Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005. Not one settler, not one Israeli police station or IDF base. They had an election, and elected Hamas.
Funnily enough, you are in fact following Fascist logic by repeating Hitler’s theory that Jews, even when they’re absent, in fact control others from behind the scenes in dark hallways.
>you are in fact following Fascist logic by repeating Hitler’s theory that Jews, even when they’re absent, in fact control others from behind the scenes in dark hallways.
no, they’re not. how could Israel cut power and water to Gaza unless they controlled it?
>Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005.
except all the military incursions and I’d checkpoints on the border
Gaza has been under defacto Israeli control, even according to the Israeli supreme court, they control everything that gets in or out (yes even on the Egyptian crossing and a complete naval blockade), one of the big reasons Hamas exists is aid given to them by the Netanyahu government literally getting rid of secular oppositional groups and working with Hamas over the PA.
funnily enough, Bibi himself has spouted the idea that the Nazis were puppeted by the Palestinians into doing the holocaust.
there are many worlds where the abolition of Israel wouldn’t result in the deaths of Jewish people, unless you swallow the fascist dichotomy of “Israel is the only safe place for Jews” and “Israel is inherently in danger, due to group X”
Removed by mod
The history of this region proves this to not be the case though. Jews have mostly been chased out of the region a few times with many dead left in the wake.
Jews did not live peacefully before the British mandate ended, there’s a long list of pogroms and assaults leading to many dead in the hundreds of years leading up to the UN establishment of the state.
It would be great if they could live peacefully but history shows that’s a risk they can’t take.