The Illinois State Supreme Court found a strict assault weapons ban passed after the Highland Park shooting to be constitutional in a ruling issued Friday.
Finally, some good fucking news.
In the ruling, which was 4-3, Justice Elizabeth Rochford wrote, “First, we hold that the exemptions neither deny equal protection nor constitute special legislation because plaintiffs have not sufficiently alleged that they are similarly situated to and treated differently from the exempt classes. Second, plaintiffs expressly waived in the circuit court any independent claim that the restrictions impermissibly infringe the second amendment. Third, plaintiffs’ failure to cross-appeal is a jurisdictional bar to renewing their three-readings claim.”
What do you guys think of an “USA-News” sub?
Always those “US court decides X over weird US law, Court 2 decides Y, Court 3 decides both are idiots” littering the news.
Either way, us news is still going to be posted to news because it is news. It makes no specification on location and there seems to be far more US users than anywhere else. If you want to see other news, post it.
It’s probably be a better option to make a “non-us news” community.
Agreed. There’s already a thriving non-US news community at lemmy.world/c/world
I’m pretty sure all of the people you don’t want having assault weapons in states like Illinois already have them.
I’m not so sure the ones those people dream of targeting have yet acquired reciprocal defenses.
Happy to see less guns around, but I do worry about the pre-existing distribution of them.
yes but everyone who wanted to smoke in the 80s and everyone who wants to smoke today does- but there are only less smokers and less smoke inside nowadays because it was legislated.
change can only come through attempting change
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It actually is a pretty fair comparison.
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Just the analogy that you can setup laws to change the user behavior.
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First, you have to start somewhere. If one person legally purchased a nuclear bomb, I don’t think they shouldn’t pass a law preventing anyone else from purchasing a nuclear bomb.
Second, you’re not going to be carrying around any long gun. Those will be for home defence at most, likely just a range toy (and also to be shown during a protest to make sure other people know your people are armed). Maybe it’ll be useful if we end up in a civil war or something, idk. A handgun is nearly as good at killing people and can be carried around easily. If you want protection from these people then you want a handgun.
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A rifle won’t protect those people either.
A handgun has almost as much killing power as a rifle. Most rifles people have are fire 5.56x45mm rounds. The penetrative power of those are reasonably low. Now, 7.62 will probably punch through any body armor they’re wearing, but that’s fairly uncommon I’m the US. With the NGSW we’ll see more larger rounds, but until then your handgun will kill about as well as their rifle, assuming your close enough which a self defence situation would imply.
A longer gun is better for longer ranges. If you’re at longer range, probably just get out of the way instead of thinking you’ll fight back. Most likely you’ll just make the situation more confusing and no one will be able to identify the “good guy with a gun” and you’ll get shot, by police or otherwise.
That’s the big problem. There are a bunch of gun stores in East Chicago, because it’s in Indiana. People just cross over state lines, buy guns, and go back to Chicago proper.
Not legally, and not through any licensed dealer. So if you know of anyone doing that, feel free to report their crimes to the police so you can do your part to reduce gun crimes.
Well if you’re a resident of Illinois you can’t go to another state and buy a gun from a licensed dealer. You’d have to have it shipped to an FFL in your state. Since this rule is in effect then the FFL in Illinois wouldn’t sell it to you.
The only way you can go to another state and get a gun is if it’s a private sale.
The obsession of guns in the USA is insane.
- Sandy Hook massacre of 2011 did not change anything.
- Las Vegas massacre of 2017 did not change anything.
- High school massacre of 2018 in Santa Fe, TX did not change anything
- Grocery store massacre of 2019 in El Paso did not change anything
- Robb Elementary massacre of 2022 in Uvalde did not change anything.
- Outlet mall massacre of 2023 in Allen, TX did not change anything
(yes there are many more mass shooting prior to 2011 and in between. These are just the ones I can recall as of writing this post)
American Exceptionalism at its best
Every year, there are about two million defensive uses of guns. This obsession saves those people.
What are those two million people defending themselves from, I wonder?
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Themselves mostly.
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Sure…
Two-thirds of gun-related deaths are suicides. This obsession enables people who are hurting and struggling to end their lives, and in some cases, the lives of many people around them first.
There’s way more firearm accidents and suicides than incidents where guns actually helped. They make everyone, especially gun owners, less safe. If safety is the primary concern, the less guns the better.
Defensive use of guns, like defending yourself from a kid you decided to pull over because he had skittles!
Do states have “Supreme Courts” in the US? What an odd naming scheme.
Yes. Each state has a Supreme Court of the state, and then there the Supreme Court of the United States for matters that regard the federation of the states. If it’s only a state matter, it won’t go to the SCotUS. The SC of the state is the highest court where the state law is applicable.
Except for NY
Ah no my point was just about the name given to it, where I’m from (India) we have a similar system just that the highest state level court is called “High Court” and not State Supreme Court. There’s only one Supreme Court and that does the federal level stuff. Wouldn’t seem very supreme if every state had one did it :P
The intention is that each state has full self-determination as long as it doesn’t run counter to federal law. Each state has its own legislature, executive, and judiciary.
Yes, all of them do as far as I know.
Such a weird way to sue against this law. What kind of equal protection defense could you wage?
Because why should a retired police officer be allowed to own a weapon that nobody else can? It only makes sense because otherwise they’d lose the support of law enforcement.
Either everyone should be able to own them, or nobody.
Im good with the second option!
But but, if I go to dairy queen, who will protect me from Margaret and her damn screaming kids
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This is a bad news
I believe in no restrictions. If I want to own a nuclear missile, so be it.
So you’d be okay if some crazy killed you and everyone around you because they had their own personal nuclear weapon to do it with? Really?
what you don’t like freedom, commie?
At least I died free
—an awful lot of 6 year olds
And you are the reason these restrictions exist. 2nd Am. is a very important right and the real reason the fight against it is so successful is because of immaturity from the gun rights supporters.
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Good. Not because AWBs are good, but this means it will likely go to the SCOTUS faster to be overturned nation wide. 2A grants The People access to weapons, the state has no right to prevent law abiding citizens access to arms.
So when are you getting your land mines and napalm?
As soon as the NFA stamp gets back.
I don’t want either. But since I assume you’re implying these are illegal, landmines are legal for citizens to own with either an NFA tax stamp (about $200 each) or with a SOT/FFL (about $600/year) and napalm like substances are easy to produce yourself (I’m not sure on its legal standing, but retro enthusiast criminals who want to hurt people with napalm aren’t exactly concerned with the law).
Ooh ooh ooh, my favorite!
criminals exist and do not follow the law, therefore law should not exist
totally a big smart boy take and definitely NOT smooth brained nonsense
Not what I said. You’re extrapolating what you think someone who is pro gun rights would say.
I can clarify or answer questions about my position, but you clearly are just looking to “own” a random person on Lemmy not actually have a conversation.
Not the person you replied to, but I’ll give you a chance. I’m not American, but I do hunt and own guns.
Why are you against the government having a licensing program before giving access to firearms?
The American understanding of rights is that they are inherent and bestowed upon all of not by the government but by right at birth.
We have the right to criticize our government not because they let us but because that’s a right all humans have. Even if the government decided tomorrow that the First Amendment doesn’t apply anymore we would still have that right, because the First Amendment didn’t grant us a right it simply acknowledged the existing right.
If your ability to practice a right is contingent on government approval your rights are being impeded.
People just don’t understand or appreciate natural rights anymore and it saddens me.
Are you equating owning a gun with criticizing the government? Because I’m not seeing the connection.
That doesn’t completely ring true. The Second was written to ensure the well-regulated militia (which has slowly morphed into a standing military) that would be needed to protect the free society.
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CLEARLY nothing because everyone knows that misrepresenting your opponent to force your own dogma into the conversation without any level of actual intelligence just to get the heckin moral superiorityino is the proper way to discuss these days.
I love it when they say that. Guess what? Criminals don’t follow murder and rape laws when they murder and rape people. Should those laws be taken off the books too?
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My firearms and I will be completely fine.
All of the rotting corpses of school shooting victims may have an issue though
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Care to explain your arguments there or are you just being emotional?
Tons of children dead in America. Tons of school shootings. Once we decided Sandy Hook was fine and acceptable and did absolutely nothing to help prevent something like it from happening again, our fate was sealed. Regardless of whether you or anyone else think that’s irrelevant or invalid or moronic is all well and good, it won’t bring them back
Do you support your local PD?
I do, I support the defunding of my local PD
Can you enlighten me on that? How does it work if you want to ban “assault weapons” and defund the police? Isn’t that counter intuitive? A police state is almost required to enforce the laws that are put in place like this. I have a difficult time understanding how that works.
Enlighten me on where I said those words in that order. Even paraphrasing.
What absolutely blows my mind are the gun sucking, boot munching morons who somehow simultaneously hate any kind of government overreach but would let a cop do anything they wanted to anyone they knew without blinking an eye. Now how does that make any sense? I thought we had the second amendment to protect ourselves? Are we really always gonna rely on fucking obese white supremacist Copper Dan to help in our time of need? Those goddamn little bitch babies in Uvalde certainly didn’t rise to the occasion, what makes you think they’d do anything to help you?
I have a difficult time understanding how that works.
I fail to see how that’s my problem.
Ah, so then you understand that the government is allowed to regulate and distribute the usage of some weapons, glad you pointed that out.
The lefty populists are too numerous on this site but thanks for fighting the good fight lib brother.
I needed this, thank you.
Sucks… everyone should be permitted to be armed. Why would you want to walk around not protecting yourself ? It’s a dog eat dog world, like it or not…
Coming from a nation with exactly zero right-to-carry I disagree.
I have visited the US before but honestly won’t again. I’m just not comfortable walking around with people who have become immune to the violence they perpetuate by carrying guns just about everywhere.
It makes no sense to me to live in that kind of constant fear. Like seriously, I don’t know how all you aren’t dead because your amygdala and hypothalamus are exploding from the stress.
“How to tell an American from an Eurpoean: An American can tell a gunshot from a firework by sound alone.”
As a pro-gun girl from liberal Massachusetts, I largely agree with you but have a few caveats:
These kinds of laws always bother me due to the nebulous nature of the definition of an “assault weapon” in this country. A quick search will tell you that there is no single definition for an assault weapon from a legal standpoint, but that it generally refers to “semi-automatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns that are able to accept detachable magazines and possess one or more other features.” This definition includes almost every pistol ever created, as the defining attributes of a pistol that differentiate it from a revolver are that they’re semi-automatic and almost always use a detachable magazine, except for some early designs like the Luger which use an internal magazine. Notably, the Colt AR-15 (the one all over the news for mass shootings) is not an assault weapon, and neither are rifles like the FN FAL, which was the French army’s rifle for awhile during the Cold War. I have also seen stuff like AK-47 variants that are legally considered pistols here in the US, and even pump-action AR-15s, which would be completely legal under these kinds of bans despite being able to fire rounds almost as quickly as a standard AR-15.
It’s even legal to anonymously buy the majority of parts for a gun online here, except for the lower receiver, which is a part that has a unique serial code on it that must be registered. Which brings me to my main issue with these kinds of laws: they always feel like stopgap measures which don’t do anything about the actual issues but allow politicians to pat themselves on the back and claim they’ve solved the problem forever.
It’s completely possible to have a country where you can own guns without having the issues we do, but everybody is too wrapped up in this 2nd Amendment spat. Countries like Australia have shown that it’s possible. Australia used to have a gun culture identical to the US until they had a school shooting in the 70s. At that point, everybody in the country agreed to never let something like that happen again, tightened their gun laws and had a mass turn in of guns, and they haven’t had a school shooting since. There’s even a country in northern Europe (I wanna say Sweden?) where everybody has to do like 3 years in the army, and they can keep their service rifle after that time, and yet, they have no issues with mass shootings like we do here.
The belief that everybody in this country has a right to own a gun, whether they can be trusted to be a responsible gun owner or not, is probably the biggest problem we have towards actually solving this issue, and no one state can do something about it. These kinds of bans are always fairly easy to circumvent just by going to the closest state with relaxed gun laws, and they punish responsible gun owners who are going to freak out for suddenly being criminals for owning something that they bought legally. So we end up with these bans that treat a symptom and not the root causes while also pushing gun owners to vote for politicians who want to get rid of any regulation at all on guns.
You’re probably thinking of Switzerland and they can’t own personal ammunition.
As for the rest of your point, the second amendment is the hot button because those who want to take away the fundamental right to own arms are basically saying that rights are affordable. That’s not how they work. As someone in this thread said, the bill of rights do not grant you these rights, they already existed and the bill is acknowledging them. IE, under no circumstances does the government have any capability or authority to deny or revoke it under any guise. The very concept of the people for the people would be erased otherwise.
If the culture of America legitimately swung overwhelmingly in favor of handing in their arms (never going to happen) cosmopolitanism tells us that is fine and good. If the government decides for you that everyone is in agreement, that is a spit in the face of liberty and a complete fabrication of their ability to revoke rights (which as stated they don’t have).
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Australia didn’t ban guns because of a school shooting in the 70s. They banned guns after a mass shooting known as the Port Arthur Massacre in 1996.
Which brings me to my main issue with these kinds of laws: they always feel like stopgap measures
The reason for that is laws themselves. You and I may have different definitions of what an “assault rifle” is but could probably come to some agreement. Perhaps some combination of the caliber, rate of fire, magazine capacity, etc. Finding that form of consensus across the electorate would be impossible. The people who write the laws have to write specific wording which will be immediately and voraciously attached by the well-financed pro-gun lobby. It will also be attacked by ingenious (and I mean that sincerely) hobbyists who will do their best to circumvent the laws. I’m sure there are a few hardcore 2A enthusiasts who hate Trump for banning bump stocks, which serve no purpose other than to make a slow-firing weapon into a fast one… and just happened to be used in a mass killing.
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It’s just a different mindset. People carrying don’t have to be fearful or stressed out like you assume. They just want to have the ability to defend themselves or loved ones. Police simply cannot protect everyone all the time and violence is a thing that can happen sometimes. Violence certainly doesn’t happen all the time but many people prefer to carry and not need it then need it and not have it.
The people who are actually a danger are still going to be dangerous regardless of how unarmed others choose to be.
Maybe you feel like you can depend on your police or your local criminals are less violent.
Cops are as bad here as they are in America, as are criminals and crime – with the notable exception of gun-related crime and deaths.
The only difference between your nation and mine, in this context, is open-carry is NOT allowed.
You do realize that open carry doesn’t mean you can just walk around with a gun in your hand, right? The gun has to be on a sling or in a holster. Holding it in your hand in any way that looks like you immediately intend to use it is brandishing and results in a charge.
Criminals don’t care about carry laws as breaking laws is kinda their whole deal.
Normal people carrying isn’t a problem unless you assume normal people get murderous the second they have the opportunity.
You haven’t said your country but I’m willing to wager that there’s more difference between your country and ours than you’re led to believe.
Unfortunately there isn’t because we share a very long undefended border with you.
It’s not fear, lmao, it’s prevention. Do you wear a seatbelt because you fear dying in a car crash every day you enter it? Or is it preventing the possibility of that hypothetical serious injury?
No licensed CCW owner here is walking around armed like a schizo looking over their shoulder and afraid of every person they meet ready to fire. They simply understand there are humans in this world that would take advantage of you if they could, and if that situation occurs, why handicap yourself.
Government data itself from the DOJ shows you’re less likely to be a victim of injury in crime by having a gun compared to simply not doing anything, hell having a personal knife could be more likely to get you killed. The point made is it’s not the government’s right to decide for us if we want to arm ourselves. The individual is enough to make that decision.
No licensed CCW owner here is walking around armed like a schizo looking over their shoulder and afraid of every person they meet ready to fire.
That sounds exactly like a lot of Republicans, so are you sure about that?
I mean, do I have to start listing people getting shot because they pulled into the wrong driveway or delivered a package while being black?
That sounds exactly like a lot of Republicans, so are you sure about that?
“Believe me guys, I know most Republicans! Swear!”
Did I say most? I’m pretty sure the thing you quoted didn’t use the word most. Again- I can start listing people being shot for pulling into the wrong driveway or existing as a black person if you like…
No need. I think it’s clear we’re not going to change eachothers minds. I will ask though about people who shoot recreationally. Do they not deserve to own your standard run of the mill ar15?
No. “I enjoy this” does not equal “I deserve this.”
I can also list all kinds of things some people enjoy which they don’t deserve. Like sex with women who don’t consent. I could go on…
Prevention is acting out of fear.
That’s contradictory. Prevention is preparedness. As in pre-emptive. As in it’s not an action to be ready for something before it happens, as the action only comes when needed. I keep a first aid kit not for fear, but use. Do I fear coming along to someone with a deep wound that needs suturing because I own it? Obviously not. You must have never heard the phrase, better to have it and not need it than be without.
When a risk is so small, there’s no reason to be prepared. That’s fear acting.
If you truly believe situations needing a gun are as common as needing a first aid kid or being in a car crash, then I would quickly move somewhere else.
Besides that, being prepared is not always the solution.
When hiking, you can stuff your backpack for every little risk you might take, but your hike won’t last long, as you’ll quickly realise you won’t get far with the weight you’ve carried. You’ve even increased the risk of injury.
This is what gun carriers are to me. By unnecessarily preparing, they actually increase the risk of falling victim to what they prepared for.
You might not carry out of fear, but you’ll learn to fear soon, because you’re contributing yourself to the problem.
not in civilised countries it’s not mate. sounds like a shithole if you need an AK47 to go to the shops
What exact situation do you expect to get into where a shotgun, handgun, and/or hunting rifle is insufficient for the task? This isn’t a movie.
Intermediate .22 caliber semiautomatic rifles excel in home defense applications.
They are softer to fire shotguns or bolt action rifles and can be fired more accurately with less training than pistols as you have a stock to stabilize them.
And their cartridges are designed for high velocity low weight projectiles which have a lesser capacity to penetrate walls and injury those beyond them than it’s alternatives.
It’s not a matter of which options could be sufficient. It’s a matter of which options are best.
It’s just step one, they want to disarm us. This isn’t a romance novel
Who is they
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God damn patriarchy
Illinois supreme Court , in this instance
Who ruled on the constitutionality of a law passed by elected members of government. It’s not like they made it up. Is “they” the people who elected the politicians who voted for the law? Seems like a lot of “theys.” Are you sure you don’t just hold an extremist belief about guns that most people in Illinois seem to want legislation to protect themselves from?
If you read the article the court didn’t rule that the actual law was constitutional. The court’s ruling was that there was no constitutional issue with the law particularly as it related to the equal protection clause. This ruling doesn’t mean that there isn’t any other constitutional issues that arise from it, such as 2a or 4a violations.
It’s not “unconstitutional until proven constitutional” lol
You clearly think this law is unconstitutional and hasn’t been shown to be constitutional yet but that’s just not how laws work.
I’m sure it was just a coincidence that Pritzker then also passed a bill that lawsuits regarding this anti-gun bill (among others) could only be tried in the courts of Chicago and Springfield, the only two courts willing to allow this dogshit. Right, it was really a fair trial.
I’m from Illinois, every county outside those has stated their dislike and contempt for this law enough that sheriffs have made mention they will not zealously enforce this. It is overwhelmingly a hated bill and there are piles upon piles of lawsuits in the lower courts that are now invalidated thanks to Pritzker’s bullshit. They will be up for federal review and hearings on why the upper courts have made this faulty judgement despite the contempt, citing those lawsuits.
I’m sure it was also a coincidence that right after it was passed, the Pritzker family made notice they would be building a giant megaplex gun range and firearm museum directly on the border in Wisconsin where the banned items would be available for rent.
So most of the people in the state support the law, but the land outside of those cities doesn’t? Sounds like voting worked.
I’ll be waiting with bated breath for the giant scandal coming out of Illinois. Sounds like these Pritzkers have subverted the entire state court system, what a big scandal. Any day now that very real and not at all made up scandal is gonna come to light. Aaaaaany day
Even the wild West has gun bans in large towns, wake the fuck up
The Wild West is not the place you want to look at for constitutional (or even just moral) government practices.
Yeah, the one part of the country in the 19th century that accepted black people as equals after the Civil War- we sure shouldn’t look to them for how the country should be today.
Tell that to the Buffalo Soldiers in Brisbee, AZ. Racial prejudices were unfortunately brought West.
Compared to the rest of the country? Black people could hold the same jobs as white people, including law enforcement and other powerful roles, and this was tolerated. Do you think they would have tolerated Bass Reeves anywhere else in the country?
My point is that racism still existed in the West, often in various levels depending on the specific location. Pre civil war Southerns flocked West to claim states as slave states to attempt to secure the future of the institution of slavery.
I didn’t mean to suggest that there was no racism in the West, just that there was a lot of equality compared to the rest of the country. The rights of black people were, in many parts of the West anyway, on or close to parity with white people as far as local governments were concerned.
Agree with one exception: It’s a dog eat dog country. It’s not like that anywhere else in the industrialized world
Yeah but Russia, North Korea, China are all industrialized, see where they are? Government screws them daily… It’s about individual lives and freedoms. About me. And about you. More discernment to gun purchases are needed, if anything. To keep them away from nutsos
Now list all the industrialized countries that don’t have widespread gun ownership and do have individual lives and freedoms. I mean according to you they should all be like Russia, China, and North Korea right?
Now do this again but with a country you’d like the USA to be compared to.
No country is on USA’s level- we are a world leader. Pioneering the way. Yes some individuals make wrong decisions but at least we can make our own choices to speak and act how we want and learn from the consequences; we can overturn our governments in the courts if they violate our constitutional rights at this point- let’s keep it that way.
I was just talking about countries that forbid you to protect yourself (as a strong example of my point of our rights being taken away).
If no county is on our level, why are you comparing us to the worst in the world, instead of the best of the world? That is, in my opinion, the most damning part of your argument.
If no other country is on our level why are we not leading in the way in life expectancy, human rights index, prison population, suicide rate, gun violence, murder, paid time off, parental time off, health care outcomes, childbirth survival rates, equality indexes, and many many more?
We get screwed by the government in the US, too. Yet, people aren’t actually taking up arms against the government out here. They’re taking up arms against each other. It really seems that we’ve missed the mark on why we’re supposed to be such a pro-gun nation in the first place.
