EDIT: no, I don’t sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they’re losing an argument ;)
Most defederation isn’t because people are disagreeing though. It’s because the people they’re defederating from are assholes.
Yes, let’s enter discussion with the literal Nazis so we can try to understand them. There might be nuance to their calls for mass genocide.
Fuck off OP.
Fuck that. Defederate all Nazis.
This post assumes that a meaningful amount of defed instances are caused by simple lack of agreement. Often, it’s an orthogonal matter - it boils down to instance A actually understanding something about the userbase of instance B and saying “I’m not dealing with this shit, it’ll make the instance worse for its own users”. For example: the typical user of B might be disingenuous, or preach immoral prescriptions, behave like a chimp, or be a bloody stupid piece of trash that should’ve stayed in Reddit to avoid smearing its stupidity everywhere here.
Are instance admins too eager to pull the trigger for defed? Perhaps, in some cases; specially because it handles groups of users instead of individuals. But those cases are better addressed through actual examples, not through a meme talking on generic grounds.
No offense but this is kind of what happens in real life too. Nazi shows up to local bar. Barman or owner doesn’t throw them out. Eventually they invite their friends. It winds up being known a Nazi bar. People who don’t want to associate with Nazis no longer visit the bar. This is why intolerance of the intolerant is a thing.
The paradox of tolerance.
Tolerance must tolerate all but intolerance of tolerance
Tolerance is a social contract.
If you refuse to be bound by it, then you are a direct threat to the contract, and those who follow it, and should be treated as such.
Funny thing is, the Nazis would use those same guilty by association tactics to silence and crush dissent.
Yeah, but the difference is that the nazis wouldn’t be right or even honest, unlike the ones who oppose bigotry and genocide. You can’t tolerate intolerance to death.
Defederating brigaders and trolls is necessary to maintain a healthy community. If your instance is defederated from all major instances, perhaps you should look examine what sort of company you keep.
With that mentality we’ll all become beehaw. The cesspool of don’t look at me funny.
What a telling perspective.
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Lmao “try and understand them” fuck off, OP. You’re not fooling anyone. There’s no point trying to understand assholes.
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‘people posting stuff you consider harmful’ is not a simple, black and white issue. Anyone who pretends that allowing all opinions has no consequences is full of shit, anyone who claims that tightly policing opinions has no consequences is full of shit.
Like almost everything in life, you will have to navigate a tenuous balance between these two things and you will never know if you got the balance right. You are just a sack of meat doomed to die.
You might be doomed to die, I’m going to upload my consciousness to a Boston Dynamics Murder Dog 9000.
Not just managing to live until the inevitable furry genetics era out of spite.
We are getting close to massive life extension/ clinical immortality.
People were saying that about cryogenics.
Humans have a vast body of knowledge about how things work. It’s a shame its dwarfed by the vast body of knowledge we are completely ignorant of.
Much as scientists managed to be surprised that life had evolved to eat garbage in the pacific garbage patch, it seems some will manage to be surprised that when humans eliminate one source of mortality, another inevitably evolves to take advantage of the ever-growing supply of humans.
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What a simple, stupid argument.
You can’t enter a discussion with somebody who’s just trying to bombard you into submission. OP is wildly ignorant or just somebody sad they’re being defederated on a different account.
Welcome to memes@Lemmy.ml
Yeah op’s a fuckin moron to an extreme level
A hit dog will hollar.
Yeah, let’s try to understand child abuse images /s
Let’s find the middle ground with Nazi’s too!
I want to stab you in the back 8 times, you don’t want to be stabbed at all.
Let’s compromise and I stab you 4 times.
We can surely work a way to achieve peace for our time!
Yeah! They put on a red shirt, that means they’re cool!
Doing holocaust denial to own the tankies!
LOL a tankie (read: genocide denialist) talking about some genocide denial? That’s what I am referencing dipshit, both of you have the tendency to do the same, you just pick and choose which genocides to deny. Go fist your own dickhole.
Liberals when someone denies white genocide: 😡
Liberals when someone denies the Holocaust: 😍
Really going mask off there.
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So you’re just not aware that that’s been a real problem? I mean, ok you didn’t know, but your uninformed opinion is worthless.
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That’s specifically what happened to lemmy.ml recently
Fuck off nazis.
Follow your leader and kill yourselves.
Imagine thinking racism and child porn have arguments worth listening to. Just defed and forget they exist.
I’m so glad that the comments have (mostly) finally unified in agreement that defederating Nazis and other hideous people is the right move.
We tried every other form of debate on the topic. If people are engaging in a discourse in bad faith in hopes that they will benefit from the publicity, your best option is to ignore them.
Yup, exactly
We need a list of all instances that defederate with such trash and only use them, not the others.
I’m not up to date on the drama. Who got defeded?
I think it’s mostly about Hexbear, Exploding heads and lemmygrad.
Exploding-heads.com went down. They moved to nostr afaik.
Good riddance.
Unless the nazi wears red, then let him spew his holocaust denial because “western propaganda imperialism butwhatabout they deserved it it never happened.”
If the ‘thing you dont agree’ with is hate speech or shit promotting violence for example that’s the only sane option you have lol
Find me one neoliberal who isn’t promoting violence.
Here’s a comment thread where a Hexbear user said “I hope to kill people like you” because I simply said I supported democratic socialism.
Going on any Hexbear instance people froth over telling anyone right of Karl Marx to “get up against the wall”. You guys are, and will always be, a joke.
If course you would, like a good little authoritarian.
In my ideal society I’d give people like you the freedom you deserve.
This you?
You said you supported Social Democracy not Democratic Socialism. Dem Socs are well-meaning but idealistic, not optimistic but the political philosophy of idealism. Soc Dems are supporters of a kinder capitalism for the Imperial core but keeping the child slaves mining cobalt in the Congo.
The fact that you think these are the same proves the original posters point that you should read theory. They were harsh but you were implying that keeping exploitation of the third world is preferable to socialism.
Dude you still don’t stop worker exploitation, don’t solve the contradiction of working and capitalist classes, don’t end imperialism or colonialism (social democracy outsources exploitation to the third world)
Ok let me know how your method works out
You said you supported Social Democracy not Democratic Socialism.
What a terrible mistake to make! Perhaps you should have assumed it was the correct orientation of the two words that are spelled exactly the same.
The fact that you think these are the same proves the original posters point that you should read theory.
I have, but thanks for the suggestion.
The abolishinists were mean to me. : 😭😭
The tankies were being tankies, not unexpected.
youre getting into arguments where you don’t know what the words mean, and then acting indignant when people point that out
Assuming people are using words in the way they are widely and commonly accepted to mean (I mean, just look at Wikipedia for an easy starting point) is not a bad thing?
I’m innudated with endless notifications from you dweebs, mistakes happen.
I’m innudated with endless notifications from you dweebs, mistakes happen.
People keep telling me that I shit my pants based off the way I smell and the growing brown stain on my pants but they’re all tankies because they’re all wrong
Maybe we can assume people got terminology wrong and not immediately jump to death wishes?
two words that are spelled exactly the same
Social and Socialism are not spelled the same, neither are Democracy and Democratic.
What incredible insight. The word ‘social’ is referring to ‘socialism’ and so is the relation between ‘democracy’ and ‘democratic’.
It would take an idiot to mix these up, right?
The word ‘social’ is referring to ‘socialism’ and so is the relation between ‘democracy’ and ‘democratic’.
I guess social security = socialism security in your world? Social welfare programs are not socialism and if your political education included anything beyond Elizabeth Warren’s policy page you’d know that.
What a terrible mistake to make! Perhaps you should have assumed it was the correct orientation of the two words that are spelled exactly the same.
Your beef is with the English Language not me. How is it my fault that you misidentified yourself? Funnily enough, you still don’t identify your actual political position. It’s clear that the only political position you’d take is what gives you an advantage in the argument. Fucking debatebros lol.
I have, but thanks for the suggestion.
Reading so much theory that you confuse two different political ideologies. Sometimes I read so much theory that that I claim to be a monarchist when I really mean to say I’m an anti-monarchist. Obviously the other person should have understood what I meant. Your literally on a communication medium that allows you to plan and edit your comments. You have no excuse for making this grade school mistake.
Debatebro? That’s what Hexbear does best.
I would actually love to engage in good faith discussions, but Hexbear users only operate in bad faith, particularly by sealioning. Like clockwork, you don’t engage in ideas but rather give reading assignments.
I’ve read Das Kapital and agree with virtually all the premises about how society is unfair to those who actually generate the surplus value and think that we need to fix a system that breaks cyclically, as Karl Marx correctly predicted in volume I. The only solutions I’ve seen presented are a total revolution a la 1917, which occured before globalization. Anything close to this in the current globalized world will kill at minimum hundreds of millions globally due to interdependence on products that Marx would consider “needs”, such as medications and medical equipment like dialysis machines.
The difference between you and me is that I’d rather work to reestablish democracy away from capital interests. I don’t want a dictatorship, I want a functional democracy. Propaganda is often used to disillusion the working class from democracy, and if you don’t vote in elections then you are clearly part of the problem.
Edit: Lmao. Citing"theory" gets crickets from the people who endlessly say “you just haven’t read theory”. It’s like they don’t know what to do with someone who reads to understand, rather than “reading” just to virtue signal.
Debatebro? That’s what Hexbear does best.
Hahaha, literally “I know you are but what am I”
reading" just to virtue signal.
Lmao peak angry chud solipsism. “I would never read except to lord it over others, so that must be what these commies are doing.”
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Haha, classic Catradora_Stalinism, what a rascal.
She would make a great staffer in the Lubyanka.
She’s probably like 16 dude chill and welcome to the Internet where people fling the most unhinged nonsense at each other without a second thought
An aggressive communist with no sense of how the world works could be a child? You’re the most self aware Hexbear user.
Also lol to “dude chill”. I’m not the one fantasizing about murdering people.
Nah the capitalist system you cheer for murders people just fine, Mr. Welfare-capitalism-is-actually-socialism
She’s not here, do you want me to pop into that thread and chastise her for you?
My mind just boggles at the fact that anyone is taking this two bit reddit clone seriously enough to carry a grudge longer that the lifespan of a single thread.
welcome to the Internet where people fling the most unhinged nonsense at each other without a second thought
TIL I am internetting wrong lol.
For me personally, flinging unhinged shit at other users is tiring. I find it much easier to either be nice or abandon ship
It takes all kinds.
mfer im in college im crying ahhhhhhhh
Hah classic Catradora bamboozle you rascal.
because I simply said I supported democratic socialism.
so you promoted violence first?
i’m failing to see your complaint hereOh silly you.
I simply said I supported democratic socialism
So you said that you support the regime of extreme global inequality against the third world in order to maintain treats in the first.
I support what are realistic policies actually will push the status quo in the direction you want.
Larping on the internet waiting for a revolution to occur seems like a nice fantasy.
IDK what country you’re from, but in America at least, a democratic socialist has about as much likelihood of being elected to any given office as a communist does, so if you’re looking for “realistic” policies you should look elsewhere.
There are numerous democratic socialists who are in Congress, you just aren’t paying attention.
Run for office. There have been many spoilers from genuine grassroots campaigns. Don’t want to do either? Keep coping and seething online.
The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. Entryism always ends up changing the entrant instead of the system. We are revolutionary socialists.
Who are you talking about? AOC? If your definition of a democratic socialist is a left-leaning Democrat then it is thoroughly incompatible with mine, because I would require at a minimum that anybody classified as any kind of “socialist” be staunchly opposed to Capital.
I too support democratic socialism
Allende just needed more people’s militias
So socialism, if it has any degree of democracy to it, which is kind of essential to socialism, is evil in your eyes.
What version of decision making is acceptable in socialism then?
Just one party rule?
“Democratic Socialism” is a term for a specific school of thought within socialism that I am criticizing for its tendency to align with imperial, ie US/NATO foreign policy that has created a system of unequal exchange that keeps most of the world in poverty in order to fund the excesses of the first world. It does not mean “socialism but we have a democracy”, that’s every form of socialism. Also it generally has a different meaning when applied to socialist movements in third world countries, which is why I wouldn’t criticize a party like MAS for the same reason.
I consider China’s Whole-Process People’s Democracy to be the current gold standard democratic process on this planet. Democracy should not end when people vote for their representatives, it should be a constant process of polling and implementing the will of the people, and its success is why Chinese citizens have among the highest satisfaction with their government of anyone.
Extreme violence is still violence. Industrial violence on a massive scale is still violence. You are advocating for violence, terrible violence, and then getting upset someone else advocated for comparatively mild violence.
Yes. Tolerance should not extend to intolerance, and intolerance should never be a thing we tolerate.
If it were that simple, then it would be fine.
But the point is, people just start to label anything that whiffs of a different opinion as “intolerance”.
So the solution is to just kick them off all the mainstream platforms and ensure they go to their own echo chambers where they are isolated from any reasonable counters to their ideology, which will just ultimately make the problem worse? Brilliant.
It’s like the war on drugs. If we just ban it then surely the problem will disappear…except it just gets worse.
How can people be this shortsighted?
Nazis/extremists don’t respond to rational arguments against their ideology.
You ever hear of that black guy who makes friends with KKK members? Sometimes they give up their bullshit and they become friends. I will accept the risk of having futile arguments with many if there is a chance that logic and reason breaks through to a few.
That’s different than arguing with people on the internet. Daryl Davis shows these people their shared humanity face-to-face. All I’ve ever seen from letting fash “debate” people on the internet is them slowly spreading their ideology to vulnerable people who are viewing the same conversations. Saying stuff that sounds reasonable on the surface like, “not everyone you disagree with is a nazi” even though they want to kill minorities as if that motive vs not wanting that to happen/doing everything in your power to make sure it doesn’t happen is a simple disagreement.
I admit you raise some good points. I have always thought that people susceptible to extremism will eventually find it online, but maybe they won’t, and maybe exposing them to those ideas in rational conversation on mainstream platforms is too “risky.” My gut tells me that is not the case, but that is just my gut. It seems worthy of some kind of study.
I did that for years. Many years. It burned me out and made me much more of a thin-skinned and intolerant person with those around me in real life.
I love places where they willingly come to redeem themselves (like r/IncelExit) but otherwise I just stray very, very far. It took a heavy toll on my mind.
It is a noble thing but one that shouldn’t be required of most users.
Cheers. Not everyone has the constitution to engage, and that’s fine. I do not think hate should be tolerated, but I think it must be confronted with reason. The only alternatives seem to be more isolation, extremism, and violence.
Honestly I still discuss online but it’s very rare. Mostly with teenagers since they are usually more open.
There is a problem of even where to confront with reason. Most of the time you hinder more than you help on mainstream social media, because more comments on a post will boost it on the algorithm and distribute the original poster’s message further while they remain wilfully ignorant.
Hear hear
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Well whenever regular people go in to their communities they get ridiculed and have their comments removed or even banned, so what’s the difference?
Maintaining the moral high ground is crucial when attempting to fight extremists with reason and discourse.
MLK understood this tactic and brilliantly deployed it with his non-violent movement, and he defeated extremists with reason and discourse.
You can call me naïve, but wouldn’t have been a shame if MLK gave up when he was called naïve?
When they go low, we go high.
-Michelle Obama
I wish we lived in a functional democracy where you can go “high, when they go low”. The only thing that has resulted in is eroding the democratic system by ceeding power that undemocratic individuals will keep for themselves.
Edit: To add, I believe that Michelle Obama was right when we said that, but the world has radically changed since then.
No way this isn’t a bit
Yeah because normalising fascism in 2016 so that actual nazis came into the light and the mainstream sure helped make them less destructive and made them have less of an echochamber! Oh wait…
If you have the choice between an eco chamber where 10% of people are nazis and say nazi shit to other nazis and normalizing nazism to the point where mainstream gathering places are full of crazy nazi babble and having 15% nazis I would chose to contain the poison.
