What is wrong with calling people unintelligent when they are doing unintelligent things that are directly causing me problems (for example, people on their phones blowing through red lights?) If someone tries to change lanes into me and I say “are you blind? You almost hit me!” is that similarly bad?
The main issue that seems to be the disconnect is simply that you are using the word as an insult.
Calling someone unintelligent is fine (I feel at least) but specifically using words that are associated with disabled people as an insult towards abled people is blatantly putting one group on top of the other.
The insult in that case cuts both ways. The person you are directly talking to is insulted because they are acting like a “lower group” and you’re also insulting the entire group by saying they are inherently lesser.
You can not use a group of people as an insult without inherently viewing that group as insult worthy.
This really focuses on the darkest possible aspects of people. I think I finally get why I’m not offended by the same things folks like you are.
I hear someone use a word like this, and I think “they are using an obvious example they saw, and applying it here in a deliberately facetious manner”. You hear the same word, and you think “that person is deliberately denegrating an entire group of people.”
You’re not going to like my saying so, but neither approach is always right or wrong here. There are people that absolutely are doing what you think they are. What your stance doesn’t seem to accept, however, is that others are not.
You can live your life any way you wish, but I think people who think this way may want to take a step back, and maybe put their swords down. White Knights don’t always do well in a grey world.
Intent doesn’t really matter if the entire butt of the joke is that this person is asking like a “lesser” group.
Even if intent did matter… How would a passive observer be able to tell if the person meant it or not? You really can’t without knowing both parties involved, their history together, and if that person regularly does similar styles of joke.
It’s easier to just pick a different word to insult someone’s intelligence instead of one that’s designed to hurt a specific group of people.
When someone uses this word in the pejorative out of an abundance of ignorance, and they are met with a response that is equal to that of someone saying it deliberately to denigrate all mentally challenged individuals, well, then we have a problem. I would argue that intent very much matters here in this situation, and I’ll tell you why…
When any of us treats another human being as the sum of our own fears (collective or personal) for the words they have selected, then we project something far worse than reality on that individual. By doing so, we risk weaponizing political correctness into a tribal position. What I mean by this is that you radicalize someone, rather than educate them. They become offended, rather than enlightened.
In today’s society, one’s chastisement in this manner could literally push someone on the fence into voting for someone like Donald Trump. This is because there’s a serious counter-culture push going on in response to campaigns like this one. You don’t have to like what I’m saying, but I do implore everyone to understand this reality.
It’s better to tolerate words like this one to a degree, and to do good where and when you can. It is a moderate approach to a society that is becoming ever-more polarized and radicalized. If we can’t start here, then I’m not sure where we can start. We need to treat people with more compassion - we need to accept that intent is very important, and we need to a give people the benefit of the doubt (to a degree, of course).
By comparing people to these slurs, you enforce societal norms that indicate that the said group has less value in society.
Since humans are social creatures by nature, you are essentially dehumanizing an entire class/group of people because you can’t come up with something more clever to say.
To err is human, we all make mistakes, intelligence/sight/etc. has nothing to do with it.
Your submission in “lemmy user(ule)s: “this sign won’t stop me because i can’t read”” was removed - Using disability as an insult is not ok, end of story.
fuck off, you don’t get to hop on a high horse here. you don’t get to turn it around when you’re straight up refusing to reflect on your own behaviour. i’m sure you think you’re being very clever, but i can guarantee what you’re doing right now is such common bigot behaviour that the people in this thread see right through it.
you feel like you should be allowed to use a slur. extremely weird, but alright. the people around you will, however, react accordingly. you’re not special.
We probably wont convince you in these comments, but using someone’s condition as an insult to someone else can definitely hurt them. It can seem like an unimportant issue when it doesn’t directly affect you. I remember as a kid, I had friends with disabled family members who got really upset when others used the r-word. When it affects you directly it becomes a lot more clear.
I don’t agree with OP that you should never be allowed to call someone names… But I do think the r word is potentially hurtful to actually mentally disabled people, so I wouldn’t use it for that reason.
In general its better to use words that represent choices people make and not unchangable aspects. I wouldn’t use terms “black”, “retarded”, or “gay” as insults, for example. Someone below suggested “foolish” as a good example since it’s not an inherent trait but a behavior.
It’s only an “established slur” to some people (mostly in online niche communities), to a lot of people it’s just everyday speech. Words such as retarded, special needs, intellectually disabled, moron, imbecile and more are all terms used to describe a disability, just like “blind”. I’m tired of this artificially accelerated pejoration sped along by people who just want to correct others to feel good about themselves, the euphemism treadmill for people with intellectual disabilities in particular spins faster than for any other topic. We haven’t invented 15 different phrases for blind in the last 50 years, there’s no reason to do it for disabled brains any more than for disabled eyeballs.
Instead that energy should be focused on ensuring people don’t use someone’s disability to put the disabled person down. Those people are the real problem, not normal folks criticizing people for their shitty behaviors they can control, not immutable characteristics about themselves.
Your submission in “lemmy user(ule)s: “this sign won’t stop me because i can’t read”” was removed for Using disability as an insult is not ok, end of story.
I’ve been called dyslexic before as a slur a few times. I laughed every time and explained that I am dyslexic.
Zero times have I ever, EVER cared that someone used this word like this. Why? Because they are human beings that saw symptoms and thought it was funny.
Is dyslexia funny? Yeah, sometimes. In the same way, there are some hilarious characters that are blind. Our differences don’t have to be something we’re constantly defensive about. Humor is a very human reaction to coming to terms with such things.
Some people just need to take a step back and realize it’s okay to inject these things into humor, IF you do it tactfully, and with a measure of compassion.
I could not agree more! I hope you re-read what you just wrote.
Edit: Wow… that was a really dishonest edit you just made. You literally edited your comment so it looks like I’m conceding my position, and you didn’t even put “Edit” in there. I think we’re done here… if you’re doing things like this, then nobody on this platform should be conversing with you seriously.
I’ve reported you for that. No person on Lemmy should be permitted to edit their comment to make the person they are having a cordial exchange with seem like they agreed to something they didn’t agree to.
I saw you block others in this thread purely because they disagreed with you, so this isn’t too shocking… but still, shame on you.
I’ve come to use this more as well. There’s never a real need to insult someone’s intelligence, but there is often a need to point out when someone is acting like a fool.
look, if this doesn’t make you see how it’s a shitty thing to say, i don’t think anyone else can help you understand.
i appreciate how they admitted it out loud: “but how can i harrass people and call them unintelligent if the r-slur is unacceptable?”
what about dont call people unintelligent. hm?
What is wrong with calling people unintelligent when they are doing unintelligent things that are directly causing me problems (for example, people on their phones blowing through red lights?) If someone tries to change lanes into me and I say “are you blind? You almost hit me!” is that similarly bad?
yes haha
Removed by mod
The main issue that seems to be the disconnect is simply that you are using the word as an insult.
Calling someone unintelligent is fine (I feel at least) but specifically using words that are associated with disabled people as an insult towards abled people is blatantly putting one group on top of the other.
The insult in that case cuts both ways. The person you are directly talking to is insulted because they are acting like a “lower group” and you’re also insulting the entire group by saying they are inherently lesser.
You can not use a group of people as an insult without inherently viewing that group as insult worthy.
correct
This really focuses on the darkest possible aspects of people. I think I finally get why I’m not offended by the same things folks like you are.
I hear someone use a word like this, and I think “they are using an obvious example they saw, and applying it here in a deliberately facetious manner”. You hear the same word, and you think “that person is deliberately denegrating an entire group of people.”
You’re not going to like my saying so, but neither approach is always right or wrong here. There are people that absolutely are doing what you think they are. What your stance doesn’t seem to accept, however, is that others are not.
You can live your life any way you wish, but I think people who think this way may want to take a step back, and maybe put their swords down. White Knights don’t always do well in a grey world.
Intent doesn’t really matter if the entire butt of the joke is that this person is asking like a “lesser” group.
Even if intent did matter… How would a passive observer be able to tell if the person meant it or not? You really can’t without knowing both parties involved, their history together, and if that person regularly does similar styles of joke.
It’s easier to just pick a different word to insult someone’s intelligence instead of one that’s designed to hurt a specific group of people.
When someone uses this word in the pejorative out of an abundance of ignorance, and they are met with a response that is equal to that of someone saying it deliberately to denigrate all mentally challenged individuals, well, then we have a problem. I would argue that intent very much matters here in this situation, and I’ll tell you why…
When any of us treats another human being as the sum of our own fears (collective or personal) for the words they have selected, then we project something far worse than reality on that individual. By doing so, we risk weaponizing political correctness into a tribal position. What I mean by this is that you radicalize someone, rather than educate them. They become offended, rather than enlightened.
In today’s society, one’s chastisement in this manner could literally push someone on the fence into voting for someone like Donald Trump. This is because there’s a serious counter-culture push going on in response to campaigns like this one. You don’t have to like what I’m saying, but I do implore everyone to understand this reality.
It’s better to tolerate words like this one to a degree, and to do good where and when you can. It is a moderate approach to a society that is becoming ever-more polarized and radicalized. If we can’t start here, then I’m not sure where we can start. We need to treat people with more compassion - we need to accept that intent is very important, and we need to a give people the benefit of the doubt (to a degree, of course).
By comparing people to these slurs, you enforce societal norms that indicate that the said group has less value in society.
Since humans are social creatures by nature, you are essentially dehumanizing an entire class/group of people because you can’t come up with something more clever to say.
To err is human, we all make mistakes, intelligence/sight/etc. has nothing to do with it.
Removed by mod
Your submission in “lemmy user(ule)s: “this sign won’t stop me because i can’t read”” was removed - Using disability as an insult is not ok, end of story.
fuck off, you don’t get to hop on a high horse here. you don’t get to turn it around when you’re straight up refusing to reflect on your own behaviour. i’m sure you think you’re being very clever, but i can guarantee what you’re doing right now is such common bigot behaviour that the people in this thread see right through it.
you feel like you should be allowed to use a slur. extremely weird, but alright. the people around you will, however, react accordingly. you’re not special.
We probably wont convince you in these comments, but using someone’s condition as an insult to someone else can definitely hurt them. It can seem like an unimportant issue when it doesn’t directly affect you. I remember as a kid, I had friends with disabled family members who got really upset when others used the r-word. When it affects you directly it becomes a lot more clear.
based
I don’t agree with OP that you should never be allowed to call someone names… But I do think the r word is potentially hurtful to actually mentally disabled people, so I wouldn’t use it for that reason.
In general its better to use words that represent choices people make and not unchangable aspects. I wouldn’t use terms “black”, “retarded”, or “gay” as insults, for example. Someone below suggested “foolish” as a good example since it’s not an inherent trait but a behavior.
i don’t think you shouldn’t ever be allowed to call someone names, not sure where you got that lol. for the record i 100% agree with your comment :)
sorry if i come across any other way i just personally find it important to sass people who vehemently defend “muh rights” to use established slurs
It’s only an “established slur” to some people (mostly in online niche communities), to a lot of people it’s just everyday speech. Words such as retarded, special needs, intellectually disabled, moron, imbecile and more are all terms used to describe a disability, just like “blind”. I’m tired of this artificially accelerated pejoration sped along by people who just want to correct others to feel good about themselves, the euphemism treadmill for people with intellectual disabilities in particular spins faster than for any other topic. We haven’t invented 15 different phrases for blind in the last 50 years, there’s no reason to do it for disabled brains any more than for disabled eyeballs.
Instead that energy should be focused on ensuring people don’t use someone’s disability to put the disabled person down. Those people are the real problem, not normal folks criticizing people for their shitty behaviors they can control, not immutable characteristics about themselves.
false. 🥰 blocked for continuing to vehemently defend your right to say slurs.
Foolish seems like a useful word, probably could be substituted and keep the intended meaning intact.
gets cut off
FOOL OF A TOOK
That is infinitely funnier, using solely LoTR quotes would make road rage much more humorous
Your submission in “lemmy user(ule)s: “this sign won’t stop me because i can’t read”” was removed for Using disability as an insult is not ok, end of story.
I’ve been called dyslexic before as a slur a few times. I laughed every time and explained that I am dyslexic.
Zero times have I ever, EVER cared that someone used this word like this. Why? Because they are human beings that saw symptoms and thought it was funny.
Is dyslexia funny? Yeah, sometimes. In the same way, there are some hilarious characters that are blind. Our differences don’t have to be something we’re constantly defensive about. Humor is a very human reaction to coming to terms with such things.
Some people just need to take a step back and realize it’s okay to inject these things into humor, IF you do it tactfully, and with a measure of compassion.
i’m glad you can find humor in it but it’s also important that you shouldn’t tell others when to not feel offended
which you are doing with the phrase “some people need to take a step back.” that’s a really unkind thing to say.
(edited for clarity because i misspoke 🙂)
I could not agree more! I hope you re-read what you just wrote.
Edit: Wow… that was a really dishonest edit you just made. You literally edited your comment so it looks like I’m conceding my position, and you didn’t even put “Edit” in there. I think we’re done here… if you’re doing things like this, then nobody on this platform should be conversing with you seriously.
i edited my comment because i misspoke, which you accurately called out, and i thanked you for. please be kind.
edited, thank you
I’ve reported you for that. No person on Lemmy should be permitted to edit their comment to make the person they are having a cordial exchange with seem like they agreed to something they didn’t agree to.
I saw you block others in this thread purely because they disagreed with you, so this isn’t too shocking… but still, shame on you.
I prefer to tell people they’re being foolish. Foolish is something we all do, and one can snap out of it.
I’ve come to use this more as well. There’s never a real need to insult someone’s intelligence, but there is often a need to point out when someone is acting like a fool.
Seems like a good word, I like that