If we were able to age out of authoritarian conservatism, it would have happened a long time ago. Possibly as far back as “cooking food over fire is making kids these days weak”. That should never have been a strategy. Doubly so when there’s a time limit to solve global warming.
The zoomers are more like boomers than any other generation. The thought that they would save anyone but themselves is ridiculous.
Liberals solve the problems that cause voters to die. Conservatives push for the status quo, even if the status quo kills the voters. The more deaths, the more people move towards the liberals. What, right now, is killing Gen Z?
Gen Z males have been raised in this “men need to be the alpha dog - don’t let anyone talk down to you - don’t respect anyone” mindset throughout high school. Then, when they get out into the real world, that mindset lead them to flunk out of college, not hold down a job, and not be able to get/keep a girlfriend. With no education/money/girlfriend’s house and housing prices through the roof, they have to move back in with there parents who:
A) Are liberal and thus blame it on there attitude, which makes them even more conservative
B) Are conservative and blame it on trans-mexican-CRT-cowfarts, which makes them bond more with their parents.
How do we fix this?
Just replying to thank you for that glorious combo of terms. As the dirty migrant I am, I simply had to steal it for my username.
Good luck!
For many, it would be making them more community-minded and responsible as younger kids. The combo of rarely being held accountable for mistakes or failure to meet expectations (basically, gentle parenting) and a social education from algorithmically curated content feels like it’s been a major factor in developing their social/political attitudes.
No, Gen Z just isn’t conservative enough to settle for Dems. Put up a progressive, and they’ll show up.
doubt it will work as well as you think
Whatever the Dems do, even if it move their platform to the furthest left in the known universe most moral puritans on the left will just lable them mainstream, or corpo shills and find a reason to stay home. Regardless of policy position or idea, the far left has always moved the goalposts between each election cycle just out of reach of the main stream.
When they refused to vote for Gore because of climate change the party moved to the left to meet those voters, and the left said fuck off. When they moved to left to get voters that refused Hillary because of corporate speaking gigs the party moved further left on corporate accountability, and the left said fuck off. When Biden moved left during his term to protect the environment, hold predatory schools and lending servicers accountable, attempted loan forgiveness, expanded overtime guarantees, etc etc etc. the left said fuck off to his predecessor. The people who claim the left will just show up if you give them x are big fat liars. Their perceived moral purity will always be more valuable to them than progress and action.
And I say this as someone that is further to the left than the party. I am also profoundly disappointed in the parties lack of moral courage. I just believe in practical progress and action, something most self righteous moral puritans absolutely don’t believe in.
No. The party has never moved left beyond their rhetoric. Their actual policies keep moving right. For example, even as their climate rhetoric went left, they still broke records on fossil fuel extraction, waived environmental protections to build Trump’s wall faster, and tried to ban imports of green tech.
The real sticking point is war. The party refuses to move left enough to be anti-war, because they are beholden to defense contractors. And Americans are so sick of war, they’ll vote for anyone they believe might de-escalate.
100% of the USA relies on fossil fuels. Dems have always done both in the last 2 decades, focus on energy independence (which means meeting the present need) and on preparing for the future (clean energy alternatives). And they weren’t trying to ban green tech, they were trying to stop spyware from entering the country from china. Yes Biden blew it on the wall.
The real sticking point is war.
It’s the real sticking point now. As soon as the party shifts their policy stance there will be others, that’s my point.
People on the left have no clue how policy is made, how party platforms change, how minds are changed. If you want a seat at the table you actually have to take it. That means showing up and joining, going to meetings, voting on policy platforms, holding your nose and voting for your team and then pressuring you side to do what you want. It means saying “hey, if you take a moral stand on this, I’ll back you up in the next election.”
But that’s not the way of self righteousness and moral purity, the lefts smug moral purists would rather torch the world than work with people. They say “thank for taking a stand on this, but it will never be good enough, kindly go fuck yourself”. The party doesn’t move left, because the left is far far too self righteous to ever actually work with anyone that doesn’t pass their purity test. People like that don’t actually believe in democracy, in consensus building, it’s their way or the highway.
I agree the party needs to move left, but people that actually want to govern on the left need to meet them there.
I understand that’s what you want to happen. That you think the left should hold their nose, and compromise on the horrors of the empire to get a seat at the table.
But as this election has shown, that’s not going to happen. So it’s not the left that needs to hold their nose to get a seat at the table. It’s now the party that needs to swallow their pride, and acquiesce to the left, or they’ll continue to lose their seat at the table.
You’re missing my point. I am much further left than the party on most issues. I too wish for the party to move left. It won’t move left by left wing people disappearing, that behavior only serves to move the party right. The party needs 50% of the vote plus one, if you don’t show up to vote, they will get it from the moderate right next cycle. Every time you fail to be part of the solution you make the problem much worse.
Alternatively, people can get engaged with the party now, while we have time to take over. The party is made up of it’s members. If those members shift heavily left, so will the platform. You don’t win the game by refusing to play, you win the game by becoming the team.
But that’s the opposite of what is happening. Instead each time the party fails to gain enough power to enact left wing policy and instead is forced to concede to the middle they get punished and they have no choice but to move towards the votes.
We are repeatedly doing exactly what the right wing wants. Stay fractured and disorganized, and we all lose, forever.
Its the working class vs the 1%, not generation vs generation.
Sorry to break it to ya Slate (libs), Trump barely got more 18-24 votes this time than he did last time, whereas a lot of young people just didn’t show up for Harris. Everybody knew young people were upset by the genocide, they said they couldn’t vote for Harris because of her policies and surprisingly no matter how much Dem party dorks tried to shame them they didn’t show up, just like they said they wouldn’t. And now everyone is like “gen z is maga” get a grip
The sad part is I don’t think most gen z voters who withheld their vote for Kamala fully appreciated what a 2nd Trump term meant, but here we are.
You’re right of course. This is part of the reason there needs to be a viable workers party, to educate and uplift the consciousness of workers to counter the lies of the GOP and the criminal negligence of the Democrats.
The lads depicted are Gen Alpha 18 year olds. Gen z is mid to late twenties now. Some of them are about to hit 30…
The birth year range for different generations is fuzzy, but I can’t find a single source saying that 2006 or 2007 would be considered gen Alpha. The youngest population that voted in this election is gen. Z, and not all members of Gen. Z are eligible to vote yet.
Fuck Gen Z. Gen Y fo life!
Gen Z grew up on social media. The same that spreads the propaganda, the fake information and the toxic masculinity bullshit.
They also grew up with an impossible social economic context where they barely have any hope. Trump’s making promises to make the country great again. What have they got to lose?
Why is anyone surprised?
What have they got to lose?
Gay marriage, contraception, porn, legal divorce? Just off the top of my head.
Their POV is that the earth is going to burn to a crisp before they’re out of paying back their college debt whether the tie is blue or red.
Play an online game and hang with some teenagers every now and again and just listen in. I hear some straight depressing shit. They have zero hope for anything.
Kamala might keep the lights on. Trump might accidentally trip over a good idea. Worth a shot if you’re fucked either way, right?
They were wrong, granted… but justified? Sure.
They have zero hope for anything.
And they’re right.
Porn isn’t going anywhere. LoL
Divorce either.
Gay marriage? It’s already dangerous to just come out, let alone get married.
And contraception? They’ren already losing that one too in many states thanks to local governments anyway.
Gay marriage?
The real solution here is to abolish marriage as a state sponsored privilege. It’s a religious ceremony that should have no place in government. It’s pretty gross how there’s so much pressure and so many benefits (eg. tax breaks) from participating in this ceremony. If people want to perform this ritual, it should be like a baptism without any state involvement. Nobody cares about gay baptism, but marriage is a hot button issue because it confers so much privilege. As a non-religious person, it’s super oppressive.
RIGHT??? 💯💯💯
“divorce either”
Just like abortion, right? You realize it hasn’t been that long that you had to prove one party was at fault in order to be allowed to divorce? You hate each other? Denied!
Yup, I remember the parents of boomers bitching about “no fault divorce”. Had to finally ask someone wtf they were going on about. This was maybe the 70s or 80s?
Turns out this shit gets passed down, now I hear Gen Z bitching about it as well as a few of the crazy influencer types coming out and saying the quiet parts out loud now. Nearly all my life, I didn’t even really hear that many boomers complain about it, and I cannot recall hearing my gen (Gen X) say anything at all about it, if they even knew what it was, except for the occasional really crazy xtian taliban type that went unfiltered and told us normies what they thought about “the state of marriage today”.
What a fucked up world that we now have to worry about this kind of thing again? These people are just fucking crazy. It’s one thing that they have such fucked up ideas about (their) elites trafficking kids in the basement of a basementless pizza parlor, but they cannot even leave anyone else the fuck alone.
They have their stupid book club, and we allow them to have it, because freedom of religion. But they insist that everyone else has to join them because they think freedom FROM religion is not an American ideal that needs to be followed…I hate them so very much. And I was raised xtian…
You have to get married to get divorced, and marriage is simply not on the table for most people. It’s expensive and pointless. Marriage rates have been dropping for a couple of decades. It’s just not important since we completely removed the original purpose… Expanding the economic success of both families.
So you don’t mind if the rights of a minority are infringed upon? You realize it’s a way to control women? Marriage doesn’t need to be expensive either and a man wanting to put a ball and chain on a woman will force her to get married and she’ll be legally stuck with him for the rest of his life if no fault divorce is made illegal again. What about the 62 million married couples that already exist?
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/rcna161562
There’s a massive difference between the social stigma attached to coming out, and the revocation of the legal rights associated with marriage.
It’s not even that long ago that people couldn’t visit their life partner in the hospital following an accident, because they weren’t married.Limited access to certain types of contraception in certain areas is a very different beast than overturning the case that ruled that contraception isn’t criminally indecent.
If you don’t know how far civil rights have come even in the past 20 years, or how much further back than that they openly want to push things back, I don’t think you’re paying attention.
Abortion had just as much legal protection as porn or gay marriage, and it “wasn’t going anywhere” until it was suddenly gone.Oh I am paying attention. I know that’s at stake. I was born in the early 80’s so I’ve seen the progress. And I’ve seen the conservatives chipping away at it for the past 20 years. Both in the US and Canada. (I’m Canadian)
I’ve been stuck with the massive democratic power of the boomer masses my whole adult life and saw them vote in these conservative and neo liberal parties that have completely destroyed whatever social safety net that they benefited from and any freedom and equality only for them to have more money to put in their retirement funds.
I was hoping the Gen Zs would join our ranks, but social media, corporate lies, toxic ideologies meant to address their insecurities, and now AI have fucked up their perspective.
Porn isn’t going anywhere. LoL
Give Project 2025 a read. Wild things in there.
Gay marriage? It’s already dangerous to just come out, let alone get married.
Thanks to who?
And contraception? They’ren already losing that one too in many states thanks to local governments anyway.
Literally a direct cause of the last Trump administration.
Man it’s like you’ve never even met any of the dumb crackheads that are cucking for these evangelicals
As a Gen-X I will never blame the later generations. Especially Gen Z and younger, if I was in their shoes I’d be livid. You bring me into this mess and then tell me it’s on me to fix it? F U
As a Gen-Xer, we got the benefit of the boomers taking almost all the air out of the room, and their parents thinking our generation was even worse than the boomers. The boomers mostly ignored us, called us slackers, etc…some time goes by and we are getting lumped in with the boomers and the “greatest generation” and getting blamed for all the problems, so that’s been fun.
Gen X had no future, it was all boomers until…oh, it’s still boomers.
I suppose this was aimed more at the sandwich generation, but still:
But it is nice sometimes to finally get remembered, even if it’s for blame.
Well, the older generation made some of the best movies for us, so there is that. I still say Repo Man represents a moment in time and a certain age bracket in a certain location like few other movies have…
They also grew up during the pandemic so they might actually be less educated than Boomers.
People are surprised that they grew up with tech and are more susceptible to the propaganda than previous generations. People are also surprised at how vile and uncaring young men have turned into, they want to “own the libs” no matter the cost. They like seeing the pain they cause
they want to “own the libs” no matter the cost. They like seeing the pain they cause
I have a hard time believing this.
When you actually talk to the kind of young, Gen Z men that regularly spout right-leaning propaganda, generally speaking, you don’t see people who enjoy suffering.
You see young men who are suffering themselves, but are given no outlet by society to express or fix it, and are heavily propagandized to by fascists who know that by creating arbitrary divides, (the most common one you’ll see with these young men being “men vs women,” think Andrew Tate type rhetoric) they can redirect the anger of these young men from systems to other individuals and groups that aren’t the actual cause of their problems.
When young men are the specific, designated target of right-wing propaganda, which explicitly tries to tell them that “men used to have it better,” and actively tries to make them believe that they’re not strong enough, not good looking enough, and not rich enough, then of course you’ll get young men that feel, in some ways justifiably, shunned.
To put it how Jason Stanley put it in his book, aptly named How Fascism Works, “Misogyny is what faces women when patriarchal expectations are left unfulfilled.”
Those expectations never need to have actually been reality, but just the very expectation that they should have those things can make them feel slighted.
But remember, while these young men are angry, sad, and scared, they still don’t enjoy causing pain. (I’m talking broadly of course, you’ll always be able to find some crazy dudes if you look enough) They just feel like they haven’t been given what they deserve.
Just like the rest of Gen Z.
The only thing that makes them different is the fact they believe the source of their suffering is a different group of people.
I’m not excusing any of their behavior or beliefs, far from it. But claiming that young men enjoy inflicting pain on others because they hold beliefs that make them feel slighted by society is just plain wrong in the vast majority of cases.
You see young men who are suffering themselves, but are given no outlet by society to express or fix it, and are heavily propagandized to by fascists who know that by creating arbitrary divides …
Man I cannot take another four years of “won’t you think of the poor lowly Trump voters?” (this time Gen Z style). The original was cringeworthy and I doubt I’ll like the sequel any better.
People have bigger problems than your average Gen Z white male Trump voter, as I’m sure they’re accustomed to telling others online and in real life whom complain (when they aren’t going on call of duty n-word tyraids and having discord chats with other idiots).
won’t you think of the poor lowly Trump voters?
This is absolutely, categorically not what I was saying.
To clarify using this point I already made,
Just like the rest of Gen Z.
I’m commenting on the fact that they experience the same issues that the rest of their generation, and in many ways, society at large experiences, not saying that their own struggles mean we should subordinate our own opinion of what society needs for their sake.
I’m not pulling a “won’t you think of the poor lowly Trump voters,” I’m doing a “these are people too, who still think they’re doing what’s ‘right’”
To these young men, society teaches them that they are fault because of the patriarchy, but leaves the door wide open for the right to proclaim that the sentiment means their own issues aren’t being taken into account, which, in many ways, is true with the way liberal media often presents the patriarchy, denouncing its effects, but not clarifying that the patriarchy doesn’t mean these young men should be doing perfectly fine already.
The messaging these young men see is (and I’m oversimplifying here, of course) “men as a category are in the wrong because of the patriarchy,” but not “but young men still face many problems, just like the rest of their generation, so we should work on fixing that too”
So of course, the right swoops in and replaces what could be a positive secondary statement, and replaces it with “they say you benefit from privilege, but if you do, why is your life so bad right now?” (ignoring the fact that their struggles are almost entirely the same as the rest of Gen Z, men or not)
Again,
I’m not excusing any of their behavior or beliefs, far from it. But claiming that young men enjoy inflicting pain on others because they hold beliefs that make them feel slighted by society is just plain wrong in the vast majority of cases.
Believing, falsely, that your issues are caused by a different source than the ground truth, and believing that a man who says he can fix all of that will, y’know, fix all of that, in no way means that you enjoy inflicting pain.
I don’t think all of them enjoy inflicting pain, but Gen Z Trump voters are just Trump voters, and some of them certainly enjoy inflicting pain (especially those walking around puppeting rape threats). I find the actions people take to be more illustrative of their character than imagined back stories.
No offense to you, but I’ve personally read tens of thousands of words in the wake of 2016 about economic anxiety only to have those same people suddenly about face on every economic issue once “their guy” took over and the opening of your post reminded me a lot of that.
and some of them certainly enjoy inflicting pain (especially those walking around puppeting rape threats)
Oh, definitely. There are always going to be some people that enjoy causing pain, and I’m not ignorant of their existence. I just believe that, broadly speaking, the majority of people in most groups, young Gen Z men included, don’t actually enjoy causing harm, or even necessarily believe they’re causing harm in the first place.
Right-wing grifters have a very easy time convincing people of arbitrary divides to cause conflict, and when young men are in a situation just like the rest of their female Gen Z peers, but don’t see the same issues happening to those women because of their media bubble, to them, the world just looks like it’s leaving them behind.
To them, they don’t see themselves as causing pain, only as trying to gain back what they’ve “lost.”
Essentially, while I do believe their beliefs are often wrong and misguided, I don’t think that most of them believe they’re even causing harm in the first place, let alone enjoy doing so.
Essentially, while I do believe their beliefs are often wrong and misguided, I don’t think that most of them believe they’re even causing harm in the first place, let alone enjoy doing so.
I dunno man, the liberal tears shit, the “your body my choice” shit, the “hang Mike Pence chants”, the insurrection, people rolling coal and flying Trump flags off cities in f-150s, etc etc. A lot of them fully know they’re being assholes at very least. There are surely some kinder, gentler fascists among them but like, those ones are ok with the constant asshole behavior as well so they’re enablers.
It sucks to learn that so many people are like this or at very least accepting of it. I bought democrats’ collective “it’s a loud minority” for a time, but at some point you just have to accept that this country is full of ignorant, fascist-loving, borderline-psychopathic assholes, or continue deluding yourself.
To these young men, society teaches them that they are fault because of the patriarchy
Women have lost their way and need to be put back in the kitchen. The gays have gotten to much freedom to be flamboyant and they’re destroying decency and indoctrinating children. The blacks are getting too uppity, they need a knee on the neck. Minorities have gotten too much and need mass deportations now.
But yeah cis hetero young men get the blame for everything.
By your reasoning, women, LGBT+, minorities are all justified in becoming extremists. Yet the only demographic is leading way on this. Now I’m sure you’ll feedback loop your logic to take it as young men getting all the blame.
But yeah cis hetero young men get the blame for everything.
Where in my response did I imply they get the blame for everything? Jesus man, at least be mildly charitable when you interpret my responses.
Women have lost their way and need to be put back in the kitchen. The gays have gotten to much freedom to be flamboyant and they’re destroying decency and indoctrinating children. The blacks are getting too uppity, they need a knee on the neck. Minorities have gotten too much and need mass deportations now.
I understand this rhetoric gets used. I’m trying to explain why.
To these young men, they’ve been told that they have privilege, but haven’t been truly explained what that means. It leads them to believe people are telling them they’re already doing well, even if they aren’t. Grifters take advantage of that, and use the common tactic of fascist rhetoric, which is to create a false past where everything was better, and offer these young men a simple solution to their problems: “taking back” the rights/freedoms/abilities/access that they “once had.”
They might hold abhorrent viewpoints, and for the final time, I don’t endorse or defend any of them, but they don’t enjoy inflicting pain, or even think that they are in the first place
I may have worded my responses in a much more convoluted way than intended, and for that I apologize. My only point in this conversation, far from defending their viewpoints or trying to pull a “let’s look at all sides” argument, is simply that while they might have been propagandized to enough, to the point they believe false things about reality, they don’t enjoy, or want to inflict pain. They simply want society to right the “wrongs” they’ve experienced, but don’t understand what the root cause is of their pain.
I am specifically, solely trying to make the case that while their actions may end up causing harm, they don’t enjoy causing harm in itself. That is all.
I don’t think that’s what they meant. What they meant is that those who adhere to the virilist ideologies found online are the ones who do. Because apparently violence and aggressive behaviour is viril.
They grew up with tech without understanding it, which is a big difference from millennials.
They also grew up in a time where the education budget was slashed over and over, even some states like Florida getting rid of history and sciences during trumps last presidency. No surprise there.
Well I guess their plan worked
Beyond their wildest dreams. The bad guys have been getting win after win after win the past few decades.
Millenials appear to have been peak liberal.
Watching TNG reruns nightly as an 8 year old really gave me some hope for humanity’s potential.
Same. Le sigh 😕
Just remember that according to the cannon timeline, the United States was rounding up people and putting them in “sanctuary districts” and in 2027 it’s the start of World War 3. Who knows, we may be right on track for that brighter future!
We were teenagers under dubya and the iraq war. Depending on how much the country swings into actual fascism this time, gen alpha might wind up standing for general anarchism
I think the ones that elected FDR 4 times have us beat
Hell I’d vote for him a fifth time, but he’s mysteriously not running.
Although I suppose he wasn’t running the first four times either…
Took me far longer than it should have to get this joke.
First generation seen moving left as it ages and a reverse tendency might be happening with the Z men while the Z women are much more left leaning. It might also be part of why Z men seem so much farther right, the women of their generation are much farther left than women of previous generations so the division is much more clear. In truth the men might not be much further right than men of previous generations were when it comes to the policies they agree with, we just didn’t pay as much attention to it back then…
Just some stuff they were talking about on the radio a few weeks ago…
That’s generally the consensus, that young men are roughly as conservative as they were historically, but women are more left-wing (although maybe a bit less than expected, given recent election results).
Results from Reagan’s 1980 election win look fairly similar: https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-1980, excepting that women and men were voting in similar ways for each age group, and bigger margins to Reagan in the older groups.EDIT: Nevermind this doesn’t actually show age by gender data.
Idk what that means though. Are you saying men always felt women’s place was in the kitchen and now women are saying it isn’t so they’ve moved more liberal?
Are you saying men always felt women’s place was in the kitchen and now women are saying it isn’t so they’ve moved more liberal?
Pretty much, although it’s not just about gender issues. Women have turned more progressive on a variety of issues (climate change, the economy, social issues) whereas men haven’t.
Then how did women’s right to vote pass if men have always felt women shouldn’t be able to vote?
If this is true, it might explain so much of why they were so angry.
Sure…
“Liberal.”
Its never been up to a single generation anyway
When the link snaps open the entire chain is broken.
It is up to every generation.
I have been saying for the past 6 - 8 years that Gen Z is the future, they are different, they are compassionate, etc. My opinion changed on that Tuesday in a bad way.
Turns out that growing up with a phone in their hand made a lot of them particularly susceptible to right-wing propaganda.
Ten Z didn’t vote Trump in. They simply voted for Kamala less.
Which helped Trump win.
Maybe they bought into Kamala’s messaging that Trump had no chance and that even Republicans hated him. No point turning up if its as good as won.
That’s not the message I saw. I saw him being considered an imminent threat, unlike in 2016.
I agree that this is the lesson, but it’s bolstered by decades of bad behavior by the previous generations who chose not to leave a livable world for their children.
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I am also elder Gen Z and im really fucken hoping its just our version of Gen X and Boomers being confused about Dragon Ball Z fights. Otherwise I hope the runts get trial by fired and knock it off.
They’ve been raised to believe their thoughts are valid and they should speak up, instead of shutting the fuck up and listening until they have enough experience.
Sorry, but that was a “kids these days” moment.
“Crazy how Millennials were the only ones to learn how to use computers and we apparently are also the only ones who learned to see through disinformation,”
Whoever this Dylan jackass is can piss right off. Gen-X built your fucking computers.
Well, TBF, the boomers helped bootstrap what Gen X was working with, and then there are the Elder Gods like Turing, Hopper, John McCarthy, Neumann, etc…
In any case, if someone thinks that learning computers means they can see through disinformation…LOLOLOL. This is exactly why I keep beating the drum for critical thinking and media literacy, steeped within a rich liberal (in every meaning of that term) educational program.
This is exactly why I keep beating the drum for critical thinking and media literacy, steeped within a rich liberal (in every meaning of that term) educational program.
I’ve actually begun work on an essay about that exact thing. One that I’ve put off for a very long time because the last time I dared to imply a causal relationship between the rise of Trade-Schools, where you learn to do one thing and one thing well, but have no real education otherwise, and the dumbing down of the electorate, I got shouted down for being “elitist”. But with recent events, I’ve decided to expand on my idea and throw some more research behind it because fuck it, I’m feeling vindicated.
I’m not saying that everyone who attends a trade-school is intellectually incurious; just that a broader understanding of the world is not a part of the curriculum and it’s left up to the students themselves if they want to be a well rounded individual on their own time.
You could throw in some Sam Bankman-Fried’s ‘philosophy’ which was just freshman-level ethics. The tech bro version of deep revealed moral truth is just they would have seen if they hadn’t all dropped out of college before taking their gen-ed classes.
I majored in Near Eastern Classical Archaeology, but the truly life-changing course for me was honestly a Philosophy elective I took in third year where I was introduced to the Metaphysics of Morals by Immanuel Kant as well as a few writings on Ethics by Locke and Hume.
Is there a link to a PDF or anything?
It’s not done yet. I’ve only just written the abstract and started collecting my sources. When it’s finished it’ll likely just go collect dust in a substack somewhere like everything else I shout into the void.
I write this stuff because if I don’t, I’ll go mad. But I hardly expect it to get widely distributed.
I’m not saying that everyone who attends a trade-school is intellectually incurious; just that a broader understanding of the world is not a part of the curriculum and it’s left up to the students themselves if they want to be a well rounded individual on their own time.
I read “Shop class as soulcraft” a while ago. I highly recommend it. I don’t have a problem with trade schools per se. Not everyone is cut out for white collar work, and there is no shame in doing other work. Smart people are required in skilled work that isn’t at a desk, IMHO. Also, I object to what university has become, and that’s essentially treating it as a trade school!
But if I were to have my ideal situation, it would be this - starting early, children are taught to question things and given a sound framework to base that on. By the time they are in high school, everyone should be able to easily spot a logical fallacy. This is not hard stuff. It’s also not airy-fairy stuff. It’s an essential life-skill, like learning to balance your checkbook and manage a household budget. This would be woven into nearly every class, where possible.
By the time someone leaves high school, whether they go to a trade school, or uni, or directly to a job, or to be a homemaker, they should hopefully be equipped to discern the wheat from the chaff and be able to use this skillset for life.
I think the major roadblock would essentially be Republicans. They basically want obedient workers, and they want people to fill their churches. Raising a set of citizens that are questioning the claims made by everyone, including qons, and who are able to spot the logical fallacies constantly employed by corporations and by Republicans would be a threat to the qons.
I agree completely. Trade-Schools are as good or as bad as the person attending. You’re going to have people like my best friend, who went to a tradeschool for bio-tech lab assistant, but reads constantly and is generally well versed in critical thinking. And then you have people like my brother-in-law, who’s a damn good Welder but doesn’t know, or care, about the wider world around him and just believes the words of whoever happens to agree with him.
Critical thinking is the most basic skill that needs to be reinforced in a democracy. But you need knowledge in order to participate in a proper dialogue, whether it’s political, social or economic. Knowledge that doesn’t come from learning how to weld good.
I agree. Which is why I think it should be done throughout K-12. Even homemakers that never went to trade or uni should be well-versed in this. It’s just as important as being able to manage a household budget.
It can of course be employed throughout uni, too…right now, I think it is for certain tracks, but I’m almost 100% that someone can get a masters or PhD in engineering and still somehow never really have a good grounding in critical thinking. I think it is how you get some of these people getting a degree, and are probably highly competent in narrow areas and have a high IQ, and yet, become denialists when it comes to pretty basic things like evolution and climate change. Because they are basically intellectually defenseless against people employing logical fallacies, they fall prey to complete nonsense.
Business Degrees are the most popular post-secondary degree in the world right now. Similarly, they learn about money money money and how to make ever increasing sums of it while completely eschewing anything else that distracts from that, like history, or ethics, or critical thought.
In any case, if someone thinks that learning computers means they can see through disinformation…LOLOLOL.
Well apparently you missed out on the reading comprehension lesson, because that is not what the original quote said. It never claimed one meant the other.
Seems like they had an association in their minds if you read the quote.
So you also need to learn the difference between correlation and causation?
(Don’t mind me, it’s been a long week and I’m grumpy)
Whoa there! Cant have the working class intelligent enough to see through the bull shit.
I do think that much of the things drummed up about “generations” feeds into the distraction. If you can get boomers vilified and at the throats of millennials, if you can get Gen-X mostly ignored and sidelined, and Gen Z getting feds lots of complete dreck while telling them “you are a magical species who gets ‘tech’ like no other” and so on (while starting to rev up the propaganda to tell Gen alpha the exact same thing)…it’s quite the sideshow from what is really happening, and that is that the upper crust like Elon and donvict are utterly lawless and making off with all the loot.
I think none of this is all that new - setting age groups against one another, setting up a war between male and females, the rural against the metropolitan, the various strata of classes that range from extreme poverty to the middle class (that still desperately needs a job to keep their head above water) and of course the old standby: setting the races against one another.
This is age-old stuff, but the techniques have been sharpened and perfected like never before. And the qons work extra hard to make sure that education won’t rise to meet the challenge.
Gen-X mostly ignored and sidelined
We’ve been ready for that since we realized that our parents were never going to retire soon enough for us to have access to the “good jobs”. We went to school and majored in “whatever was available”, and then the generation that graduated after us coincided with our parents retiring and freed up the good jobs for them.
“Ignored and Sidelined” pretty much sums up my generation. If we didn’t have computers, weed, and grunge, we’d have nothing.
Yes, as I get older, I think about how cynical I’ve been all along, as a consequence of seeing both how the boomers suffered under corporate rule - many were expecting to be able to be corporate men and then retire with the gold watch and all that, only to be downsized, rightsized, outsource, offshored - because of seeing that, and being a realist about how corporations value their “human resources”, I’ve never fallen for the corporate line when working. Thing is, I cannot say that about all of my peers. Salaried IT staff still work more than 40 hours. They skip their vacations because they are “too busy”. Not realizing that those things simply will not matter when it comes to layoff time. And these are people in my age bracket - they entered the workforce - possibly - under the early 90s recession, they’ve seen the dot-com bubble burst, they’ve seen the real estate meltdown and so they know exactly how workers will be cast off like a used condom when it suits the suits. They probably saw their boomer parents grind through things in the 80s, or heard about things in the 70s.
So you might as well take that time off. Don’t work much more than 40 hours in a week. Don’t have work shit on personal devices. Don’t check email and IM and text messages from work during off hours. It’s rare when I get to talk to a Gen Xer that seems to cop to this - or at least is willing to let down their guard and admit it to others…another cynical defense mechanism, I guess.
Because boomers were ground under all this, they stayed in the workforce for a very long time. They are even still in the workforce. Also, people are living longer, as a general rule (a recent dip in the U.S., though I’m not sure that’s going to be a trend). Gen X is a smaller pop than either Gen Y or boomers, so yeah, we got squeezed.
I think one of the more poignant moments about corporations and age groups was a moment in Microserfs where one of the characters’ dad gets laid off from IBM…anyway, it is very interesting to see how this cycle keeps repeating, and the same stories seem to be sold to/told about each upcoming generation. Seems a lot of it rhymes.
being a realist about how corporations value their “human resources
I was (and I guess still am) classic middle management. The day I went from “Cynical” to outright “radicalised” was when my previous employer told me that my staff would not be getting their yearly cost-of-living raise that year because “The Company didn’t make a profit.” Yet the company actually made 6 billion dollars in profit that year.
The issue is that some eggheads projected that they would make 7 billion, and giving raises would increase that shortfall and cause the stock price to drop by a few more cents than it otherwise would have. So in the corporate world, not making enough profit is equivalent to not making any profit and the workers get fucked.
But damn, did the head office muckity-mucks get THEIR bonus’ that year. Yessiree.
and then the generation that graduated after us coincided with our parents retiring and freed up the good jobs for them.
You think millennials had good jobs out of college? Ever heard of 2008?
2008 wasn’t the fault of bad jobs. It was the fault of overly greedy banks offering sub-prime mortgages to people would otherwise never qualify for home ownership, and then crying for a bailout when those new homeowners (unsurprisingly) defaulted.
I never said it was the fault of bad jobs. I’m saying the result was about a decade of no (good) jobs.
It’s like every generation loses the ability to do something in computer technology that was just abstracted away somehow. I as a millennial have never soldered a PC mainboard (modding an Xbox doesn’t count), but I’d say that otherwise, my understanding is pretty good. And I think all of my friends understand the concepts of files.
I recently asked someone about 10 years older if he knew what partitioning and formatting means in the context, and he knew, despite initially saying he has no clue about computers, to show someone 10 years younger (who didn’t know) that such knowledge was just basically required back in the day. And it’s not like these terms are obsolete, the concepts are still the same, even though we went from MBR to GPT and from FAT32 or whatever to better filesystems. It’s no different for phones, but not required and even hidden.
I’d say generally, the technology userbase broadened while average knowledge in the group declined, however I’m not sure whether the absolute numbers of people with a certain knowledge level actually went down.
I recently asked someone about 10 years older if he knew what partitioning and formatting means in the context, and he knew, despite initially saying he has no clue about computers, to show someone 10 years younger (who didn’t know) that such knowledge was just basically required back in the day
I call them Intellectual Oligarchies. The knowledge (of any subject, not just tech) being limited to a circle of elites while the products are made simple enough to operate that the average person doesn’t really need to know how it’s done, just how to purchase it.
The good thing about Intellectual Oligarchies, however, is that they are open to be joined by anyone who wants to learn, or is curious about things. No formal education is required; just intellectual curiosity and the ability to read. They’re entirely self-propogated; not purposefully created by some evil cabal trying to withhold knowledge from the average person. Knowledge itself is open-source, in other words. Anyone can use it if they want.
In the Greek and Roman democratic condition, people who don’t exercise that “right to knowledge” lacked the context necessary to properly partake in the citizen’s primary job…democratic rule.
Ars Liberalis doesn’t translate to “Liberal Arts”. It literally translates to “The skills of Freedom”. A citizenry of a democracy needs the skills (knowledge) to properly function in said democracy; and that included studies of history, philosophy, politics, civics, etc…
Ars Liberalis doesn’t translate to “Liberal Arts”. It literally translates to “The skills of Freedom”. A citizenry of a democracy needs the skills (knowledge) to properly function in said democracy; and that included studies of history, philosophy, politics, civics, etc…
It’s for reasons like this that I say we should strive for everyone to have a liberal education, in every meaning of that term.
The qons have done a lot to demonize the term, but it is a word that should be taken back…and given to the generations in our education systems right now. The point of a good education is not to crank out obedient workers.
It’s like every generation loses the ability to do something in computer technology that was just abstracted away somehow
Yes, I’ve been hearing computer engineers (or those with that mindset) complaining that programmers don’t really understand much about how computers actually work since before I even entered the workforce, but I kind of get what they are/were saying. I’d look around at my peers nearly the entire time I’ve been doing this, and I’d see some that really wanted to know a lot about, well, everything, in some cases, being interested in hardware, and then there were a lot, maybe more than half, that just focus on learning whatever the herd is telling them is the newest shiny object - and this is nearly always vendor-led and a lot of it is less about sound reasoning, and more about being fashionable. These days it might be a frontend JS framework, but exchange the set of terms/frameworks and it’s the same old story.
These days it is increasingly difficult to know much about the actual target hardware, if you work in hosted services like Azure, etc…
I mean, Boomer grandparents did the real lifting if we’re going back…
And some of the prior generation. There were some truly great minds working on this stuff that were the parents of boomers.
Why hasn’t there been a push to counter the propaganda on social media with social media?
Use short form, humorous posts that integrate facts and ideas that give a different more positive take on others. I would guess there are great writers and actors that have a progressive-ish mindset that could put something like this together.
But honestly what is the reason this hasn’t been done? Or if it is being done why isn’t there more of a push to get it seen?
Why hasn’t there been a push to counter the propaganda on social media with social media?
Because the dems are also right-wing and have no credibility.
The actual left-wing is constantly pushing counter-narratives but without the massive funding of capital (eg. koch bros). No billionaire is going to fund a left-wing Prager U that talks about how billionaires are trash.
Because a lie will circle the earth a dozen times before the truth gets a foot (or whatever tf the saying is).
It is so much easier, and takes so much less time and energy to make up disinformation, than to fight it. And people on the left tend to actually care about the truth, and we also want others to understand the truth (and to gain the means for them to independently arrive at the truth), and spouting disinformation goes directly against that.
It’s amazing what people are willing to do to win when you not only make it acceptable, but encourage complete disregard for ethics.
That would require ongoing funding outside of election years. These are paid for by Mercers and Kochs or the Kremlin on the right, and i don’t think Gates or Cuban is too eager to fund left-wing propaganda.
There is Holywood money in the world of progressive actors that could put something together but I don’t know that world and how it works so I have no idea if it’s something that is actually feasible.
You will be surprised to learn how little money the most famous actors in Hollywood actually have, that’s why they’re all trying to sell vagina candles and tequila.
The Hollywood elites are full of conservatives and libertarians. The elites are the suits who finance those movies like Steven Mnuchin.
Algorithms ensure that the only content that ends up getting to your eyes is content that you already agree with for the most part. Or content that you hate so much that you have an incurable urge to respond to it with swearing and vitriol. (or at least that’s why I think TikTok keeps giving me Maple Maga bullshit)
In other words, you can put up whatever you want but thanks to modern social media, the only people who will ever see it are the people who already agree with you.
why I think TikTok keeps giving me Maple Maga bullshit
I mean… it shows the garbage to you, and you keep coming back… maybe it’s time to ditch tictack
If you don’t control the platform, it might just be wasted efforts, although I guess they could try. But it might be that those pulling the strings can be sure that virtually no one is reached.
It’s a frustratingly true response… sigh
The establishment wants to stay established, so they only use their established channels, not realizing how disconnected they became.
No analysis of how the older generations that turned out for Obama and Kerry went even harder for Trump than Gen Z ? Gen X went Trump by 22 percent.
Gen Z is doing their best and if you put this all on them then you’re going to lose the next election too.
Depressing as it is, it’s fairly typical for people to skew rightward as they get older. The problem is if Gen Z is already starting at a certain position, right now…where will they be at when they reach the age of today’s boomers or Gen X/Y?
Remember: the boomers brought us the 60s. Over the years, the narrative has morphed from the boomers’ parents (and reactionaries among the boomers) clucking their tongues about the 60s to: OMG, the boomers are all in for donvict, and “okay boomer” and so on. Boomer is now shorthand for Faux News and hate radio addict. Not so long ago, that target demo was the boomers’ parents.
So, if it can happen to them, it is likely to happen for Gen Z, but maybe even worse.
The boomers were actually better than Gen X. The only reason we think people get more conservative is because we had a generation with reliable news. Then as they got older they kept Fox News on whenever they weren’t watching something else, just all the time. They didn’t realize Fox was propaganda and Gen X hasn’t realized CNN was bought out years ago with the specific idea of turning it into Fox News 2.
What we need in this country is some media literacy.
