You can pretty much lay blame on anyone or anything because there’s absolutely no way to prove it one way or another. You might as well be saying Biden got elected because of the phase of the moon.
I’m claiming that people employ binary thinking and lay blame where the answer is just a wee bit more complex. Saying “Her selfishness is a direct cause of Biden being elected.” is flat-out ludicrous for all kinds of reasons, mainly that no one knows what would have happened if Bernie had been the candidate. Nobody’s even putting numbers on what “split the vote” even means. FFS.
And look, I voted for Bernie. I even wrote him in in 2020 (I’m in CA).
But the main reason I’m saying all this is that she had the right to run. It just comes across as incredibly shitty - AND exactly the same thinking that made HRC the candidate - to say “oh no, you there, you can’t run because it might split the vote”.
And that’s what many of us are tired of. This stupid noble sentiment where we jerk each other off about how we lost the right way, the honorable way. Because it just ignores pragmatic strategy and the fact that we lost. And when we lose, how does that help anyone? Congrats, SCOTUS stacked for generations.
It’s not a zero sum game. It’s not like you “win” the election across the board and get everything you could possibly want. And even if you did get a blue wave you STILL don’t get everything you want. Incredibly, it’s a big country with lots of different people with different ideas of how it should run. It’s a simple fact that among Dems most are not that progressive. Our political system is really a bunch of compromises where nobody gets everything they want but, ideally we all get something. What I’ve observed among many folks such as yourself is that you think you should get everything instantly. My speculation is that people who think like this are dealing with a shorter time scale because they are younger. That’s in no way a bad thing but it does mean you haven’t seen the tremendous change that’s happened or 4 or 5 decades. To me, things have improved dramatically and of the many things that stand out is the fact that I don’t have to worry about being beaten, raped, or murdered for being queer. I can be openly trans. I can even marry my lover.
I’m not saying I don’t want to see a viable third party or more truly progressive candidates. But this is a long game where slow incremental progress is assured even if on a much shorter time scale it seems nothing has happened. From my perspective while we still have a long way to go, we’ve made a lot of progress.
That’s a lot of response to something I’m not even sure I was talking about. My point is the Democratic Party as a whole is lacking in tactics and cohesive strategy. The Spoiler Effect is a real thing, not some imagined phenomenon and because voters are largely uneducated about that fact it’s a big issue that is solved by people like me pointing it out. Unless you are arguing the spoiler effect does not exist, I don’t think there’s much to discuss.
Going into Super Tuesday when conveniently all the moderates dropped out in favor of biden, she stayed in the race despite having no path to win and the only reason was to split the progressive vote away from sanders as a spoiler to guarantee biden the nomination since sanders was giving him a run for his money.
Funny how liberal shills flip the fuck out about third party voting in the general working as a spoiler yet resort to bullshit identity politics when their own act as spoilers.
She along with the DNC ratfucked the primary and delivered us an ineffectual and detestable biden/Harris which directly led to trump being re-elected. Fuck her.
But yeah it’s totally misogyny for why we hate her, not the fact that she colluded with the dnc to fuck sanders over once again.
The democrats don’t give a fuck about fighting fascism. It’s all theatre to them.
Believe it or not, I share your anger toward the Democratic Party. I’m not registered Dem for that reason. I just don’t care to limit my blame to one individual and say “oh well, that’s the problem”. Because the problem is way way bigger than that.
Sanders was never going to win against the establishment candidate. No progressive candidate will, possibly not in our lifetimes and so saying things like “the democrats don’t give a fuck about fighting fascism. It’s all theatre to them” is, quite honestly, pointless and not constructive. For one, we know that’s not universally true. For another, what are you going to do about it, in practical terms?
Let’s say that everything you state is true. What practical steps can you or I take to dislodge the DNC and put forth truly progressive candidates?
The answer to this question is precisely why, while I understand and share the anger, I don’t feel shouting into the void and laying blame is a good use of time. Because ultimately there is no revolution. There is no wholesale transformation of the system that happens in a short period of time, no matter how much we want to shake our fists and protest.
The only way to loosen the grip of the establishment parties is frustratingly slow, very incremental change. And that means blaming the DNC or anyone in the DNC and saying “well fuck them, I’m never voting for a Dem again” is counter-productive.
The premise of this is false. Warren split the progressive vote away from sanders. The democrats ratfucked every primary that I can remember, they even tried to ratfuck 2008 in favor of Hillary but Obama was such a strong candidate that they failed.
You’re stuck in social democracy, I’m in direct action, unionization of the workplace and figuring out ways to undermine and overthrow capitalism. It’s only a matter of time before it collapses under its own weight but liberals and their apologists just throw their hands up and say it’s too hard. Electoralism does not work. Democracy died a long time ago, if it was ever really alive in this country.
I’m never voting democrat again. I don’t give a fuck.
"The premise of this is false. Warren split the progressive vote away from sanders. "
Prove it.
“I’m in direct action”
I too am very special.
Edit to add:
Do you know how long people have been saying capitalism will collapse “any day now”. Do you know how many dictators have been elected by people like you simply because you didn’t “give a fuck”?
What you are doing is throwing up your hands and saying it’s too hard.
Keep losing elections because you’re too busy chasing the mythical centrist unicorn who won’t vote for you anyway in a general. Keep losing, loser.
The world has spoken. Neoliberalism is over! country after country has thrown the neoliberals out of office after they’ve decimated the working class and turned most of us into debt slaves.
Go back to brunch liberal. Don’t you have some ‘work’ to do poolside? Liberals are completely and utterly out of touch and fucking delusional.
Meanwhile queers like myself are in the fucking crosshairs while liberals time and time again ratfuck elections to protect their class while lying about sAvInG dEmOcRaCy. Where’s your January 6? You’re just gonna roll over and hand over power to tHe NeXt HiTlEr? I expect nothing more than some ineffectual marching in circles with signs while crying. That will show the fascists!
You are so wound up in your anger you can’t even have a reasonable dialogue. You don’t even realize that shouting angrily at people just makes you look like a fool.
Keep losing elections because you’re too busy chasing the mythical centrist unicorn
I don’t want centrist anything, I want socialism. Calling me a liberal is about the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.
But you are so angry you can’t even read the words. You assume I’m things I’m not. LOLLOLOL.
The central difference between us is that instead of angrily shaking my fist and shouting at people so much I can’t hear a damned thing they say - I acknowledge I’m not the main character and that listening can accomplish far more than yelling in a blind range.
I hope you live a better life and recover from your anger. I highly recommend long hikes, good food, good friends and practicing gratitude.
She was never polling to win, by every matrices Bernie was projected to win, but the oligarchy couldn’t have a populist candidate win and preserve the status quo so they kneecapped him to shove Biden into the spotlight
She was never polling to win, by every matrices Bernie was projected to win, but the oligarchy couldn’t have a populist candidate win and preserve the status quo so they kneecapped him to shove Biden into the spotlight
I’m sorry but this is how I read your comment:
“How dare she run for President instead of letting the man take it.”
You need to work on your reading comprehension, then.
You need to work on your writing skills. Nanner nanner or something
She split the vote by staying running against the best progressive voice of our time. Her selfishness is a direct cause of Biden being elected.
And in turn trump being reelected.
Hard to say that one. But I truly believe it. Similar to if Florida didn’t steal the presidency from Al Gore.
You can pretty much lay blame on anyone or anything because there’s absolutely no way to prove it one way or another. You might as well be saying Biden got elected because of the phase of the moon.
Are you claiming the spoiler effect doesn’t exist?
I’m claiming that people employ binary thinking and lay blame where the answer is just a wee bit more complex. Saying “Her selfishness is a direct cause of Biden being elected.” is flat-out ludicrous for all kinds of reasons, mainly that no one knows what would have happened if Bernie had been the candidate. Nobody’s even putting numbers on what “split the vote” even means. FFS.
And look, I voted for Bernie. I even wrote him in in 2020 (I’m in CA).
But the main reason I’m saying all this is that she had the right to run. It just comes across as incredibly shitty - AND exactly the same thinking that made HRC the candidate - to say “oh no, you there, you can’t run because it might split the vote”.
And that’s what many of us are tired of. This stupid noble sentiment where we jerk each other off about how we lost the right way, the honorable way. Because it just ignores pragmatic strategy and the fact that we lost. And when we lose, how does that help anyone? Congrats, SCOTUS stacked for generations.
The reality is we have a FPTP voting system. In such a system, two party control is all but guaranteed mathematically. It looks binary because IT IS BINARY.
It’s not a zero sum game. It’s not like you “win” the election across the board and get everything you could possibly want. And even if you did get a blue wave you STILL don’t get everything you want. Incredibly, it’s a big country with lots of different people with different ideas of how it should run. It’s a simple fact that among Dems most are not that progressive. Our political system is really a bunch of compromises where nobody gets everything they want but, ideally we all get something. What I’ve observed among many folks such as yourself is that you think you should get everything instantly. My speculation is that people who think like this are dealing with a shorter time scale because they are younger. That’s in no way a bad thing but it does mean you haven’t seen the tremendous change that’s happened or 4 or 5 decades. To me, things have improved dramatically and of the many things that stand out is the fact that I don’t have to worry about being beaten, raped, or murdered for being queer. I can be openly trans. I can even marry my lover.
I’m not saying I don’t want to see a viable third party or more truly progressive candidates. But this is a long game where slow incremental progress is assured even if on a much shorter time scale it seems nothing has happened. From my perspective while we still have a long way to go, we’ve made a lot of progress.
That’s a lot of response to something I’m not even sure I was talking about. My point is the Democratic Party as a whole is lacking in tactics and cohesive strategy. The Spoiler Effect is a real thing, not some imagined phenomenon and because voters are largely uneducated about that fact it’s a big issue that is solved by people like me pointing it out. Unless you are arguing the spoiler effect does not exist, I don’t think there’s much to discuss.
Going into Super Tuesday when conveniently all the moderates dropped out in favor of biden, she stayed in the race despite having no path to win and the only reason was to split the progressive vote away from sanders as a spoiler to guarantee biden the nomination since sanders was giving him a run for his money.
Funny how liberal shills flip the fuck out about third party voting in the general working as a spoiler yet resort to bullshit identity politics when their own act as spoilers.
She along with the DNC ratfucked the primary and delivered us an ineffectual and detestable biden/Harris which directly led to trump being re-elected. Fuck her.
But yeah it’s totally misogyny for why we hate her, not the fact that she colluded with the dnc to fuck sanders over once again.
The democrats don’t give a fuck about fighting fascism. It’s all theatre to them.
Believe it or not, I share your anger toward the Democratic Party. I’m not registered Dem for that reason. I just don’t care to limit my blame to one individual and say “oh well, that’s the problem”. Because the problem is way way bigger than that.
Sanders was never going to win against the establishment candidate. No progressive candidate will, possibly not in our lifetimes and so saying things like “the democrats don’t give a fuck about fighting fascism. It’s all theatre to them” is, quite honestly, pointless and not constructive. For one, we know that’s not universally true. For another, what are you going to do about it, in practical terms?
Let’s say that everything you state is true. What practical steps can you or I take to dislodge the DNC and put forth truly progressive candidates?
The answer to this question is precisely why, while I understand and share the anger, I don’t feel shouting into the void and laying blame is a good use of time. Because ultimately there is no revolution. There is no wholesale transformation of the system that happens in a short period of time, no matter how much we want to shake our fists and protest.
The only way to loosen the grip of the establishment parties is frustratingly slow, very incremental change. And that means blaming the DNC or anyone in the DNC and saying “well fuck them, I’m never voting for a Dem again” is counter-productive.
The premise of this is false. Warren split the progressive vote away from sanders. The democrats ratfucked every primary that I can remember, they even tried to ratfuck 2008 in favor of Hillary but Obama was such a strong candidate that they failed.
You’re stuck in social democracy, I’m in direct action, unionization of the workplace and figuring out ways to undermine and overthrow capitalism. It’s only a matter of time before it collapses under its own weight but liberals and their apologists just throw their hands up and say it’s too hard. Electoralism does not work. Democracy died a long time ago, if it was ever really alive in this country.
I’m never voting democrat again. I don’t give a fuck.
"The premise of this is false. Warren split the progressive vote away from sanders. "
Prove it.
“I’m in direct action”
I too am very special.
Edit to add:
Do you know how long people have been saying capitalism will collapse “any day now”. Do you know how many dictators have been elected by people like you simply because you didn’t “give a fuck”?
What you are doing is throwing up your hands and saying it’s too hard.
Removed by mod
Such nice civil discourse from you. Perhaps you should step away from the computer and calm down.
No YOUUUUU. The blame game is pointless here. It’s really, when it comes down to it, exactly why Republicans win elections. Good job!
Just keep asking questions sea lion.
Keep losing elections because you’re too busy chasing the mythical centrist unicorn who won’t vote for you anyway in a general. Keep losing, loser.
The world has spoken. Neoliberalism is over! country after country has thrown the neoliberals out of office after they’ve decimated the working class and turned most of us into debt slaves.
Go back to brunch liberal. Don’t you have some ‘work’ to do poolside? Liberals are completely and utterly out of touch and fucking delusional.
Meanwhile queers like myself are in the fucking crosshairs while liberals time and time again ratfuck elections to protect their class while lying about sAvInG dEmOcRaCy. Where’s your January 6? You’re just gonna roll over and hand over power to tHe NeXt HiTlEr? I expect nothing more than some ineffectual marching in circles with signs while crying. That will show the fascists!
You are so wound up in your anger you can’t even have a reasonable dialogue. You don’t even realize that shouting angrily at people just makes you look like a fool.
I don’t want centrist anything, I want socialism. Calling me a liberal is about the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.
But you are so angry you can’t even read the words. You assume I’m things I’m not. LOLLOLOL.
The central difference between us is that instead of angrily shaking my fist and shouting at people so much I can’t hear a damned thing they say - I acknowledge I’m not the main character and that listening can accomplish far more than yelling in a blind range.
I hope you live a better life and recover from your anger. I highly recommend long hikes, good food, good friends and practicing gratitude.
Not everything is misogyny
She was never polling to win, by every matrices Bernie was projected to win, but the oligarchy couldn’t have a populist candidate win and preserve the status quo so they kneecapped him to shove Biden into the spotlight
How do you know?