Who assigned them male at birth? What if they were raised like a cisgender female typically would be in our society?
What makes someone “assigned at birth”? Is it dressing in masculine clothes, is it having a name like Michael and Billy, is it having a circumcision? These can all be comingled with other variations of child rearing.
Just because a parent assigns a “gender” at birth doesn’t make it someone’s actual identifying “gender”. As a young child they have no say in the matter and it’s quite frankly wrong to whitewash their childhood history and personal trauma like that.
Now that you’re more informed, I hope moving forward you stop trying to erase people’s adolescent psychological adversity.
If you ever find yourself wondering why there’s people out there that don’t speak up about trans hate, just go reread your original reply to me. My comment was nothing close to hateful or bigoted, but you’re not gonna tolerate wrong speak on lemmy.
You clearly could see where I was coming from and where my support is directed. Instead of total indifference to my comment, which would have been the bare minimum amount of attention you could give to it. You decided to take umbrage with me saying “biological” instead of what makes you happy and throw out intersex groups that make up a fraction of a percent of the entire population like an uno reverse card.
Then to cap it off you made sure to declare that I’ve been “properly educated”, so sayeth you. So from here on out, I need to use the right language or… else?
I’m not quite sure what your final edict was supposed to imply. That if I don’t use the right language my trans friends won’t talk to me anymore? I’ll get kicked out of the gay club?
Instead of leaving it, you had to make it a point to punch down on someone who isn’t as “informed” as you and put me on blast like I just said the N word equivalent for trans persons.
Seriously, it’s great you want to help spread awareness, but damn you took a super hostile and adversarial tone right off the bat.
Just calling my shot here. I wrote all this out on my phone and it will not be well received despite the fact that there’s members of trans alliance and advocacy groups who disagree with your position and disagree with the use of “ASAB”. There’s people within the community who dislike using the term trans as a catch all.
Where do you personally draw the line? Are you going to stop saying ASAB now that you know some people don’t like it? Are you going to keep saying “trans” even though some people feel like it marginalizes the community and feels too informal to discuss complex gender identities?
I didn’t take umbrage with your original comment. I just pointed out that it’s wrong and you should stop. I was annoyed when you seemed to double down.
Intersex people are just clear that “basic biology” is a non-functioning understanding of what biology is. Intersex people couldn’t exist if what you learned in high school bio was the end. It’s a clear indication that sex is not just some binary thing. It’s a very complex thing. Even non-intersex people have different developments in the growth due to different hormone levels and other things, and we can even control hormone levels artificially. It’s very complex, and the only useful term is AFAB/AMAB, and then more detailed medical records.
Then to cap it off you made sure to declare that I’ve been “properly educated”, so sayeth you. So from here on out, I need to use the right language or… else?
Yeah, use the more accurate language, or else we know you’re choosing not to. Nothings going to happen. Everyone gets to make choices in life. I can’t make you do anything, but from one cis-gendered person to another, it’s not difficult to be better. It’s just a choice.
You’re getting really offended by someone just informing you the language you used was wrong. It wasn’t even a particularly insulting comment.
Where do you personally draw the line? Are you going to stop saying ASAB now that you know some people don’t like it? Are you going to keep saying “trans” even though some people feel like it marginalizes the community and feels too informal to discuss complex gender identities?
I rarely have a use for either term, so I draw the line where it’s useful for others. If you’re a doctor, that’s where it matters, and after gender confirmation, your “sex” is a lot more complicated. After a while or hormone therapy, you’re more akin to your chosen sex than your birth sex. That’s why the “biologically male/female” term isn’t useful. It’s assuming their birth sex is their current sex for medical purposes, but it’s more complex than that. Sex assigned at birth is useful because it limits it to that period specifically, and your medical records tell the whole story.
The AEI article you posted seems to ignore this fact. It seems to say your birth sex is the important factor. It’s just one of many. For future development, the one your hormones correspond with is likely more important.
The CLR article mirrors what I’ve said earlier:
“By referring instead to sex assigned at birth, transgender rights advocates convey that “biological sex” is not simple, static, or binary and that gender identity also has biological aspects.”
For whatever reason people online are more interested in being outraged
I agree. People should be more calm, even when corrected. Being outraged doesn’t help. It only acts to cement our mind in preconceived ideas. Changing our minds when provided more information that counters our previous beliefs is something that should be commended, not fled from.
You’re a the most qualified person on the internet for cisgender, trans, and intersex word policing.
Now that I know and if I don’t change, you’ll make sure to report it to the cisgender police for trans activities special victims unit…
It’s interesting you chose the statement “it’s not difficult to be better, it’s just a choice”. You could have started this entire interaction with “hey dude, just a heads up that a lot of transphobes use phrases like ‘biological male’ to invalidate trans identities”, but instead you took the opportunity to speak down to me and made sure I was now “educated” and that I can stop using wrong speak.
Thank God you’re here as an ally to make people question why those of us on this side of the fence can’t even get along internally.
You’re a the most qualified person on the internet for cisgender, trans, and intersex word policing.
I definitely am not.
Now that I know and if I don’t change, you’ll make sure to report it to the cisgender police for trans activities special victims unit…
I haven’t reported or downvoted you.
It’s interesting you chose the statement “it’s not difficult to be better, it’s just a choice”. You could have started this entire interaction with “hey dude, just a heads up that a lot of transphobes use phrases like ‘biological male’ to invalidate trans identities”, but instead you took the opportunity to speak down to me and made sure I was now “educated” and that I can stop using wrong speak.
I don’t think I spoke down to you, but you are welcome to your opinion. I tried to inform you.
“I don’t think I spoke down to you, but you are welcome to your opinion. I tried to inform you.”
Really? You seriously can re-read your comment and don’t see how shitty it comes across when addressing it to someone who used a word you disagree with unwittingly?
“Assigned male at birth is the term you want to use. “Biological male” is a term used by transphobes to spread misinformation.”
Not informative at all. It’s you telling me what word I want to use, while implying I’m a transphobe attempting to spread misinformation.
" Biology is very complex and not your elementary school version of biology. What makes someone “biologically” male? Is it having a penis, having testis, having more testosterone than estrogen, having XY chromosomes? These can all be intermixed with other characteristics."
Here’s the fun part where you state I have an elementary level understanding of biology.
“The “basic biology” definition doesn’t work in the real world, and the people using it are actively trying to harm trans people or ignorant. Now you’re more informed so ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore.”
Here’s the cherry on top where you talk about me not knowing how to discuss complex topics in the real world or that I may be actively trying to harm trans people at worst or ignorant at best. Lastly, in case you know I’m not a transphobe that my ignorance can no longer be an excuse.
You seriously couldn’t possibly think of any other combination of words to get your point across without making me out to be someone that’s intentionally skirting the line of ignorance and bigotry in an effort to harm trans people?
Man, just reread what was shared with you and take the learning experience. You tried to be cute by making a mad-lib out of it and you sound way worse now than you did two comments up.
Edit hours later after checking to see if my advice was heeded:
Oh no, I didn’t heed my trans wisdoms lords advice and they’ve decided to deride someone for a singular word choice to make themselves feel morally superior!
This will definitely advance the trans acceptance of the common person! Or maybe stay with me here for a moment, not everyone on the internet is as accepting as you are and when they see someone getting slammed for “wrong speak” it reinforces their shitty beliefs.
“If someone who loves and supports trans people is getting shit on for saying a double plus ungood word by other trans allies, then why would I ever want to be a part of that.”
I’ve heard these conversations verbatim from people I work with who hold actual hatred for trans people and trans acceptance. Once again though you’re all living for up votes and that brief instance you get to feel morally superior on the internet and share these snippets in your discord groups. This is clearly such a flippant topic for you that all you could muster up is a meme.
If you’re taking a few online comments “from a perceived group” and labeling the entire movement and ideology of it bad because “they said mean things to me”. Well sorry pal, you were just looking for an excuse.
Try talking to those co-workers and see how nice their word play can be. Should definitely join the people who hold actual hatred than to get over some language critiques so you can properly communicate with a minority group online. You are trying to just communicate right? Just as speaking to a professional or someone without your background you tend to communicate differently to be more effective right?
I get it, you’re old-think and stuck in your ways. “I don’t actively harm people, so people shouldn’t be harmed by anything I do”. It’s so much easier to just blame everyone else and continue living in your bubble instead of actually learning new perspectives. People stay locked in their ways everyday, why should you have to be any different?
If your intention was to sidetrack any conversation from the gun article and only have a debate about trans people, well you did a good job because all of that above is a hot mess I was not interested in after only a few comments.
Lol old think… Damn you really think you’re cooking with this one.
There’s so many broad sweeping assumptions in this comment that it would take an hour to properly address them.
I’m for trans expression, safety, gender affirming care, and right to live peacefully and safely.
I’m.for sweeping changes to firearm laws and way more gun control measures to prevent senseless deaths at the hands of firearms. Ideally the US would have laws like Canada or Australia.
This is exactly my point. This “perceived group” of people online would rather be outraged and morally superior by convincing yourselves that you found a top secret bigot on a mission to detail the thread instead of just looking at the first reply to my comment as what it is, someone being an asshole by talking to down to me about using wrongspeak.
Also, perceived group? It’s like 20 dorks on lemmy who enjoy talking down to others while jumping to conclusions without knowing who they’re talking to at all. It has nothing to do with the gender identity movement as a whole. I form my opinions on that based on speakiny with my actual friends and family that are LGBTQIA+.
A simple “hey just a heads up, a lot of people avoid terms like biological male because its commonly used by transphobes to invalidate gender identities online” would have been clearly understood and accepted.
However, some people are so terminally online that they assume everything is a secret mission to destroy them from within. It seriously sounds like the reverse of the “George soros is paying libs to post these comments on reddit” crowd. I’m not saying that there isn’t people sea lioning out here and dog whistling, but you are on such high alert that you can’t even spot when someone is just being called out for simply being an asshole, because it’s on such a controversial and hot topic.
Who assigned them male at birth? What if they were raised like a cisgender female typically would be in our society?
What makes someone “assigned at birth”? Is it dressing in masculine clothes, is it having a name like Michael and Billy, is it having a circumcision? These can all be comingled with other variations of child rearing.
Just because a parent assigns a “gender” at birth doesn’t make it someone’s actual identifying “gender”. As a young child they have no say in the matter and it’s quite frankly wrong to whitewash their childhood history and personal trauma like that.
Now that you’re more informed, I hope moving forward you stop trying to erase people’s adolescent psychological adversity.
Assigned at birth is referring to what the doctor writes on your birth certificate. It’s not complicated. It has nothing to do with gender.
If you ever find yourself wondering why there’s people out there that don’t speak up about trans hate, just go reread your original reply to me. My comment was nothing close to hateful or bigoted, but you’re not gonna tolerate wrong speak on lemmy.
You clearly could see where I was coming from and where my support is directed. Instead of total indifference to my comment, which would have been the bare minimum amount of attention you could give to it. You decided to take umbrage with me saying “biological” instead of what makes you happy and throw out intersex groups that make up a fraction of a percent of the entire population like an uno reverse card.
Then to cap it off you made sure to declare that I’ve been “properly educated”, so sayeth you. So from here on out, I need to use the right language or… else?
I’m not quite sure what your final edict was supposed to imply. That if I don’t use the right language my trans friends won’t talk to me anymore? I’ll get kicked out of the gay club?
Instead of leaving it, you had to make it a point to punch down on someone who isn’t as “informed” as you and put me on blast like I just said the N word equivalent for trans persons.
Seriously, it’s great you want to help spread awareness, but damn you took a super hostile and adversarial tone right off the bat.
Just calling my shot here. I wrote all this out on my phone and it will not be well received despite the fact that there’s members of trans alliance and advocacy groups who disagree with your position and disagree with the use of “ASAB”. There’s people within the community who dislike using the term trans as a catch all.
Where do you personally draw the line? Are you going to stop saying ASAB now that you know some people don’t like it? Are you going to keep saying “trans” even though some people feel like it marginalizes the community and feels too informal to discuss complex gender identities?
Gender Dysphoria Alliance
The Problem with saying ASAB
Columbia Law Review
For whatever reason people online are more interested in being outraged.
I didn’t take umbrage with your original comment. I just pointed out that it’s wrong and you should stop. I was annoyed when you seemed to double down.
Intersex people are just clear that “basic biology” is a non-functioning understanding of what biology is. Intersex people couldn’t exist if what you learned in high school bio was the end. It’s a clear indication that sex is not just some binary thing. It’s a very complex thing. Even non-intersex people have different developments in the growth due to different hormone levels and other things, and we can even control hormone levels artificially. It’s very complex, and the only useful term is AFAB/AMAB, and then more detailed medical records.
Yeah, use the more accurate language, or else we know you’re choosing not to. Nothings going to happen. Everyone gets to make choices in life. I can’t make you do anything, but from one cis-gendered person to another, it’s not difficult to be better. It’s just a choice.
You’re getting really offended by someone just informing you the language you used was wrong. It wasn’t even a particularly insulting comment.
I rarely have a use for either term, so I draw the line where it’s useful for others. If you’re a doctor, that’s where it matters, and after gender confirmation, your “sex” is a lot more complicated. After a while or hormone therapy, you’re more akin to your chosen sex than your birth sex. That’s why the “biologically male/female” term isn’t useful. It’s assuming their birth sex is their current sex for medical purposes, but it’s more complex than that. Sex assigned at birth is useful because it limits it to that period specifically, and your medical records tell the whole story.
The AEI article you posted seems to ignore this fact. It seems to say your birth sex is the important factor. It’s just one of many. For future development, the one your hormones correspond with is likely more important.
The CLR article mirrors what I’ve said earlier:
“By referring instead to sex assigned at birth, transgender rights advocates convey that “biological sex” is not simple, static, or binary and that gender identity also has biological aspects.”
I agree. People should be more calm, even when corrected. Being outraged doesn’t help. It only acts to cement our mind in preconceived ideas. Changing our minds when provided more information that counters our previous beliefs is something that should be commended, not fled from.
Got it.
I apologize.
You’re a the most qualified person on the internet for cisgender, trans, and intersex word policing.
Now that I know and if I don’t change, you’ll make sure to report it to the cisgender police for trans activities special victims unit…
It’s interesting you chose the statement “it’s not difficult to be better, it’s just a choice”. You could have started this entire interaction with “hey dude, just a heads up that a lot of transphobes use phrases like ‘biological male’ to invalidate trans identities”, but instead you took the opportunity to speak down to me and made sure I was now “educated” and that I can stop using wrong speak.
Thank God you’re here as an ally to make people question why those of us on this side of the fence can’t even get along internally.
I definitely am not.
I haven’t reported or downvoted you.
I don’t think I spoke down to you, but you are welcome to your opinion. I tried to inform you.
“I don’t think I spoke down to you, but you are welcome to your opinion. I tried to inform you.”
Really? You seriously can re-read your comment and don’t see how shitty it comes across when addressing it to someone who used a word you disagree with unwittingly?
“Assigned male at birth is the term you want to use. “Biological male” is a term used by transphobes to spread misinformation.”
Not informative at all. It’s you telling me what word I want to use, while implying I’m a transphobe attempting to spread misinformation.
" Biology is very complex and not your elementary school version of biology. What makes someone “biologically” male? Is it having a penis, having testis, having more testosterone than estrogen, having XY chromosomes? These can all be intermixed with other characteristics."
Here’s the fun part where you state I have an elementary level understanding of biology.
“The “basic biology” definition doesn’t work in the real world, and the people using it are actively trying to harm trans people or ignorant. Now you’re more informed so ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore.”
Here’s the cherry on top where you talk about me not knowing how to discuss complex topics in the real world or that I may be actively trying to harm trans people at worst or ignorant at best. Lastly, in case you know I’m not a transphobe that my ignorance can no longer be an excuse.
You seriously couldn’t possibly think of any other combination of words to get your point across without making me out to be someone that’s intentionally skirting the line of ignorance and bigotry in an effort to harm trans people?
I’m not a trans person, but I’m pretty sure that “assigned X at birth” refers to whatever gender is assigned on one’s birth certificate.
Man, just reread what was shared with you and take the learning experience. You tried to be cute by making a mad-lib out of it and you sound way worse now than you did two comments up.
Edit hours later after checking to see if my advice was heeded:
Oh no, I didn’t heed my trans wisdoms lords advice and they’ve decided to deride someone for a singular word choice to make themselves feel morally superior!
This will definitely advance the trans acceptance of the common person! Or maybe stay with me here for a moment, not everyone on the internet is as accepting as you are and when they see someone getting slammed for “wrong speak” it reinforces their shitty beliefs.
“If someone who loves and supports trans people is getting shit on for saying a double plus ungood word by other trans allies, then why would I ever want to be a part of that.”
I’ve heard these conversations verbatim from people I work with who hold actual hatred for trans people and trans acceptance. Once again though you’re all living for up votes and that brief instance you get to feel morally superior on the internet and share these snippets in your discord groups. This is clearly such a flippant topic for you that all you could muster up is a meme.
If you’re taking a few online comments “from a perceived group” and labeling the entire movement and ideology of it bad because “they said mean things to me”. Well sorry pal, you were just looking for an excuse.
Try talking to those co-workers and see how nice their word play can be. Should definitely join the people who hold actual hatred than to get over some language critiques so you can properly communicate with a minority group online. You are trying to just communicate right? Just as speaking to a professional or someone without your background you tend to communicate differently to be more effective right?
I get it, you’re old-think and stuck in your ways. “I don’t actively harm people, so people shouldn’t be harmed by anything I do”. It’s so much easier to just blame everyone else and continue living in your bubble instead of actually learning new perspectives. People stay locked in their ways everyday, why should you have to be any different?
If your intention was to sidetrack any conversation from the gun article and only have a debate about trans people, well you did a good job because all of that above is a hot mess I was not interested in after only a few comments.
Lol old think… Damn you really think you’re cooking with this one.
There’s so many broad sweeping assumptions in this comment that it would take an hour to properly address them.
I’m for trans expression, safety, gender affirming care, and right to live peacefully and safely.
I’m.for sweeping changes to firearm laws and way more gun control measures to prevent senseless deaths at the hands of firearms. Ideally the US would have laws like Canada or Australia.
This is exactly my point. This “perceived group” of people online would rather be outraged and morally superior by convincing yourselves that you found a top secret bigot on a mission to detail the thread instead of just looking at the first reply to my comment as what it is, someone being an asshole by talking to down to me about using wrongspeak.
Also, perceived group? It’s like 20 dorks on lemmy who enjoy talking down to others while jumping to conclusions without knowing who they’re talking to at all. It has nothing to do with the gender identity movement as a whole. I form my opinions on that based on speakiny with my actual friends and family that are LGBTQIA+.
A simple “hey just a heads up, a lot of people avoid terms like biological male because its commonly used by transphobes to invalidate gender identities online” would have been clearly understood and accepted.
However, some people are so terminally online that they assume everything is a secret mission to destroy them from within. It seriously sounds like the reverse of the “George soros is paying libs to post these comments on reddit” crowd. I’m not saying that there isn’t people sea lioning out here and dog whistling, but you are on such high alert that you can’t even spot when someone is just being called out for simply being an asshole, because it’s on such a controversial and hot topic.