• PugJesus@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    Shouldn’t this, then, extend to all implications of stupidity in behavior, not just individual words?

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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      1 day ago

      Good thought, because yes, this rule applies to a lot of behaviors—insulting someone’s actions or reasoning can sometimes carry ableist implications if we’re not careful. But no, it doesn’t mean all implications of foolishness are inherently ableist. It’s entirely possible to critique someone’s choices, reasoning, or behavior without tying it to assumptions about intelligence or ability. The key is focusing on what they did or said rather than who they are.

      For example: “I see you’ve chosen confidence over accuracy again.” This critiques someone’s approach or behavior—being overly confident while wrong—without targeting their intelligence or abilities.

      • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        Is it permissible, conversely, to describe things as smart, in a positive sense?

        Furthermore, doesn’t choosing confidence over accuracy itself imply that reduced accuracy is a bad thing, despite it being something that people with reduced intellectual capacity cannot reasonably avoid?

        • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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          1 day ago

          I can’t think of examples right now, (edit: but thought of some later) but it’s definitely possible to describe something as “smart” in a way that’s ableist—like if it ties someone’s value only to intelligence or reinforces stereotypes about who’s considered “smart.” However, I’m sure the vast majority of ways to describe something as “smart” wouldn’t really be considered ableist and so are “permissible” in my book.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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            1 day ago

            How so? Isn’t necessarily acknowledging intelligence as a positive quality imply lack of it is a negative one?

            • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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              1 day ago

              Ah, we have a difference in terms here.

              Acknowledging intelligence as a positive quality

              is never ableist.

              Acknowledging intelligence as a positive quality

              can be ableist, depending on what values are being cast.

              It’s about how intelligence is framed in relation to others and whether it’s used to dismiss people who might not fit those standards.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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                1 day ago

                Ah, we have a difference in terms here.

                Acknowledging intelligence as a positive quality

                is never ableist.

                Acknowledging intelligence as a positive quality

                can be ableist, depending on what values are being cast.

                I don’t understand what you’re saying here. Acknowledging intelligence as a positive quality is acknowledging intelligence as a quality.

                It’s about how intelligence is framed in relation to others and whether it’s used to dismiss people who might not fit those standards.

                So it’s your opinion that the upholding of standards that cannot be met by some individuals by inherent lack of capacity is unacceptable?

                • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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                  1 day ago

                  Acknowledging intelligence as a positive quality is acknowledging intelligence as a quality.

                  Here’s an example where it’s not: “Of course you got in, you [are(n’t) Asian/were in the gifted program/have ASD].”

                  These examples are rare bifecta of ✅ acknowledging intelligence as a positive quality ✅ casting value judgement on those who do or do not fit that quality

                  • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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                    1 day ago

                    I don’t see how that doesn’t acknowledge intelligence as a quality.

                    Like, I’m not trying to play this off as some kind of rebuttal, I’m just genuinely not understanding what’s being said.

                    casting value judgement on those who do or do not fit that quality

                    But all acknowledgements of intelligence as a positive quality necessarily carry an implicit value judgement of those who lack that positive quality.

      • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        I see you’ve chosen confidence over accuracy again

        This is honestly a great way of calling someone stupid, but you do realise that it can be very offensive to people with narcissistic personality disorder, right?

        Joke aside, what is really stupid about this is the idea of “insulting someone without hurting there feelings”, or as you wrote

        insulting someone’s actions or reasoning can sometimes carry ableist implications if we’re not careful.

        When honestly insulting someone, there is typically an intent to be hurtful, the idea that you should be careful to “not use language that can offend X group” when doing so, kind of overlooks the whole situation of “insulting” going on