Well Ukraine got worn out over last 2 years with spotty western support and weird restrictions on weapons usage.
This is where the west wanted Ukraine. So here we are.
Russia is weakened so west and US got what they wanted it so now we are ready to do a deal.
Nobody will ever give up nukes after this and many countries are going to be getting their nukes in order as that is the only way to properly secure sovereignty and territorial integrity.
Coupled with Israel behavior undermining “rules” based international order, this is the brave new world we got.
Cheers.
This is where the west wanted Ukraine. So here we are.
Russia is weakened so west and US got what they wanted it so now we are ready to do a deal.
What the West wanted ideally was the balkanization and re-neocolonialization of Russia. https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/04/17/the-west-is-preparing-for-russias-disintegration/
The “weakening” of Russia is what they considered “second prize,” but they didn’t even get that, because Russia is now stronger. The sanctions have backfired. Russia has severed its ties with the “garden” and strengthened its ties to the “jungle.”
Unlikely. If the west was pushing to destroy Russia they would have provided Ukraine with adequate arms to do so. They deliberately created a drawn out long conflict. Whether Russia has been weakened as they hoped is debateable. It does not yet appear so.
They wanted to destroy Russia economically, not militarily, you know, the usual “bog them in forever war and sanction them to death because we control the world finance systems” and it had a good chance of success, but they miscalculated since Russia relations with China and global south in general proven to be much more robust. It was also first time after 1991 so many countries just told US “no” when they demanded another country be destroyed economically. As result BRICS managed to build their own alternative for US controlled finance system, which is pretty ad hoc by now, but it already works and is being strenghtened.
People planning this stuff aren’t idiots and they knew that there was no scenario that Ukraine could defeat Russia militarily no matter what weapons they provided. For example, back in 2016, Obama declared Ukraine to be not a core American interest and that he is reluctant to intervene in the country, because Russia will always be able to maintain escalatory dominance there.
I don’t think their goal was to create a drawn out conflict however. The idea was to use Ukraine as fodder and then break Russia economically. Western planners fundamentally misunderstood the nature of Russian economy, and thought that it would collapse after they froze Russian foreign assets and put sanctions on. Not only did that not happen, but major countries like China and India snubbed the west and continued trade with Russia. That’s where the whole hare brained scheme started to come apart, but the time this became obvious the west was already too invested to pull back.
The Americs really pushing Zelensky to not accept the ceasefire in 2022 is what mostly made me think they did not plan for victory. There were no new plans afterwards and it has been meat grinder ever since.
It’s bewildering to me that they didn’t have a backup plan. Like they just banked everything on Russian economy collapsing, and when that didn’t happen they just kept doubling down instead of adjusting the strategy.
Realistically, what other plan could they have? They’ve used the same playbook since Vietnam and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, but since it always funnels a shit ton of money to the pentagon and its contractors pumps the value of the dollar nobody gives a shit, it was a success by the only metric they care about.
That’s very true, the MIC will be happy either way. They’re looking at decades worth of contracts from Europe already.
The west has to balance providing adequate arms and not getting bombed/invaded themselves. They only do invasions on enemies they think can’t defend themselves.
They thought the sanctions would do to Russia what it did to Libya, Venezuela, Iraq, and many others, and that they’d only need to drag this one out to win it on the economic rather than the military front. That obviously hasn’t worked, so rather than broker the peace talks a majority of Ukrainians want, they’re escalating because they don’t know how to do diplomacy, they only know how to do extortion. They’re talking about “negotiating from strength” ffs.
Only permawar provides for the most weapon sales. The sanctions on Russia was tighter colonization of EU by the US. To the last Ukrainian is opportunity to buy Ukraine assets for cheap, and making the war last longer, means cheaper, and more EU subservience.
Also more debt. The same people whining about the fictitious Chinese debt trap are really silent about how the US are lending billions to Ukraine so they can finance these arms deals, we know what these countries do once you can’t repay, they confiscate all your shit.
If Russia was ever truly pushed to the brink Russia could always nuke Ukraine. There is no real way to win against nukes besides giving Ukraine their nukes back because America did not hold up their end of the nuclear deal.
Maybe don’t give nukes to a fucking nazi government in hopes that’ll bring peace? Why not start with diplomacy and iterate from there?
If the west gave nukes to Ukraine, Russia would obviously treat that as a nuclear attack by the west. At that point everybody dies.
This situation has already played out with the nukes the west put in turkey in the 60’s. I would hope they wouldn’t be dumb enough to repeat that mistake, but things these days are pretty fucking stupid over here in the USA
pretty much yeah
Possibly. Which is the point. There is no way for Ukraine to win unless the west wants to risk nuclear war.
Exactly, the whole thing was a folly from the start.
Their industry has been slowly decaying over the years and can’t adequately supply Ukraine in a long, drawn out conflict without jeopardizing their own defense. The amount of equipment Ukraine received at the first few months of the conflict was staggering, but most of it was from stockpiles built over years. Russia ramped up their industry a lot during the war and is outproducing the west, so it’s no wonder they are winning.
Not really. Only recently have they started sending modern long range missiles and semi modern fighter jets to Ukraine. Those were available since the start.
Things like missiles and fighter jets aren’t instrumental in this conflict. If they were, then Russia would’ve won a long time ago because they’ve always had a massive superiority in both. This is primarily a war of attrition with 80% of casualties coming from artillery battles. The problem the west has is that it’s simply not capable of producing things like artillery shells at the rate they’re consumed.
True but that is because both sides are mostly doing the field battle thing like they did in the 1700 instead of trying to blow up all civilian infrastructure of the other party America style. Which Ukraine cannot do much because they would get nuked. And Russia so far has not done much either.
The entire war there is just very weird. There is no way for Ukraine to win besides getting nukes or somehow destroying all Russian oil without getting nuked. And both are basically impossible.
It’s worth noting that Russia has largely dismantled Ukrainian power grid at this point. However, it very much looks like Russia is focusing on destroying the army itself first and foremost. I agree that it is absolutely illogical for the west to prolong the war at this point as it’s becoming clear that Russia has won, and that the economic blow back for the west is worse than it is for Russia. The west is falling for the sunk cost fallacy here.
The restrictions aren’t “weird”. These are weapons that need satellite guidance from NATO satellites and stockpiled at NATO bases.
If they started being fired en masse, Russia would need to disable those satellites, and the US only instigated this war to weaken Russia and prevent it from arming anti imperialist resistance groups in the middle east. It’s not interested in actually fighting, because fighting an organized army is much harder, much costlier, and carries more risk than invading Asian countries with peasant militias.
US only instigated this war to weaken Russia
Well, that’s certainly a perspective.
Really unclear how the US forced Russia to invade, you’ll have to explain that part I think.
I mean RAND published a whole paper on this that you can read, it’s not like this stuff was hidden https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html
The war exists only because Russia’s conditions for peace are not accepted. No NATO (or missile bases) in Ukraine. There was a very patient peace agenda by Russia, signed by the west and Ukraine btw, before SMO.
The war exists because Russia invaded. You can’t have a “peace agenda” or “conditions for peace” until someone started a war in the first place, and that was Russia.
The war only started in 2021 if you ignore the fact that fascist Nazi militias were shelling civilians and civilian infrastructure in eastern Ukraine for 7 years before Russia launched its SMO. There were two ceasefire agreements signed (Minsk 1 & Minsk 2) that these militias consistently violated. If you don’t believe me, you’re welcome to see for yourself. A French journalist documented this and spoke to residents about the ongoing conflict. CW: death and devastation.
Get ready to be told that Russia should just walk all their troops back and that’d be peace achieved (bombing in the Donbas doesn’t count, apparently, because it’s the good Nazis doing it), like a fucking toddler’s concept of geopolitics.
History ended in 1991 and started up again 30 years later. Everything in between doesn’t count.
I don’t believe your position can be honest. It basically says all bar fights are started by the one throwing first punch, no matter what threats are made. All US media and CIA subterfuge to corrupt democracies is not done for the benefit of the democracies. War on Russia is largely a US war on its allies, and tolerance for the concept that Russia is not forced to defend its existence, or have red lines where peace can thrive, just shows how corrupt and fooling democracy can be. Not that Ukraine is a democracy.
Not forced, more goaded. This is the war the US wanted, but it didn’t want to be seen as the one who started it.
NATO expansion:
- George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner
- Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia
- Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine
.
US-backed Maidan coup & fascist attacks on Eastern Ukraine:- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript
- Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2023: The West’s Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennett’s recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia.
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
Love the “you made me do this to you” energy here, very progressive stance of believing that sometimes abusers just have to hit people, and there’s truly nothing that can be done about it.
The geopolitics of nuclear powers as an interpersonal relationship. Peak Marvel brain.
Yeah, analogies are hard when you take them as literally as possible.
Jesus Fucking Gish Gallop Christ.
Nobody forced Russia to invade another sovereign nation. If anything it goes to show that being in NATO keeps you safe from Russia (just look at the baltic states). If Putin and/or Russia’s goal was to stop NATO expansion this war already did the opposite.
In what way is Russia weakened?
Last I checked, mainstream western sources report that Russian economy is booming. For example, the World Bank just reclassified Russia as a high income country https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/opendata/world-bank-country-classifications-by-income-level-for-2024-2025
The IMF forecasts that Russian economy is set to grow faster than all the western economies https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/17/russia-forecast-to-grow-faster-than-advanced-economies-in-2024-imf.html
Russian oil and gas revenues soared 41% in first half of the year, as the data shows https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/russian-oil-gas-revenue-soars-41-first-half-data-shows-2024-07-03/
Russian military is stronger today than at the start of the war https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ukraine-krieg-nato-oberbefehlshaber-und-generalinspekteur-ueber-folgen-und-perspektiven-a-9cb8d225-8bd8-454d-830d-009c9f46dfc9#selection-791.0-791.81
The number of Russian troops is constantly increasing https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/12/17/ukraine-s-top-general-to-le-monde-the-number-of-russian-troops-is-constantly-increasing_6736188_4.html
Russian MIC is outproducing the west. For example, Russia is able to produce 3x as many artillery shells as all of the west combined https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html
Dude don’t come in here with evidence. You’ll pop their bubble.
If I call you a Putin asslicker it basically means that all the evidence you posted is null and I don’t have to even read it or post evidence of my own, so, checkmate.
Add this one to the list, btw, Russia’s surpassed Japan as the 4th world economy by PPP gross domestic product.
On the other hand: Germany, one of the biggest sponsors of this war, is currently on its way directly to the shitter https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2024-12-18/the-german-government-collapse-and-a-trend-of-discontent
That’s basically the level of argument libs bring to the table. The most hilarious part here is that this is stuff that’s openly reported in western media. It’s not controversial in any way, and yet we still have people running around thinking that the west managed to harm Russia in some way.
Russia just lost Syria.
Seems to me that the west just gained a new Afghanistan. I’m sure Europe is going to love the new refugee crisis.
Lol, you serious? From Turkey alone around 250.000 refugees already returned since Assad fell. They were hardly able to manage that stream of returning refugees at the border. Many, many more prepare to return. Most refugees fled from the Assad governement.
The Isis-thing was never more than a minor sub-conflict.
Yeah, I’m very serious. The country is literally overrun by jihadists now. If you don’t understand that people are going to be fleeing what’s happening you’re living in a fantasy world. Even reuters understands what’s happening https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/up-15-million-people-could-flee-syrian-escalation-un-official-says-2024-12-06/
You are blaming Afghanistan for african refugees ??
No, I’m pointing out that the west overthrowing governments tends to have negative consequences for the west. The US tried to occupy Afghanistan for decades and bled trillions on that project. Meanwhile, anytime a government is overthrown by extremists, then you necessarily end up with waves of refugee fleeing the country. What part of that are you having trouble understanding?
The sadistic clown gets more and more pathetic…
No negotiations until we get Crimea back.
Ok we won’t get Crimea. But no negotiatians until we get back to 2022 borders.
Ok we won’t get back to 2022 borders. But no negotiations until someone makes Putin negotiate with me (???).
Turning Ukrainians into slaves who cannot leave the country are kidnapped off the streets and sent to die the most horrible deaths in the meatgrinder? Yes that’s totally legal and absolutely moral, why are you even asking?
Making peace with Russia by admitting you lost the war to save hundreds of thousands of lives? That’s like the most illegal and horrible thing ever.
“Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing and deporting Ukrainians in the occupied regions on an industrial scale. Every time Russia retreated, mass graves and torture cbambers were found.
Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done. The west could have equipped those poeple. The west could have trained those people. In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted, if they were properly equipped and trained. It’s in the west’s power to do that. They just don’t want to. Also, you just conveniently ignore the absolutely horrific losses the Russians are having with theirmeat wave assaults. But I guess in your world view, Zelensky is responsible for that too.
“Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing
Woah… Holy shit, you actually said that… “kidnapping, torturing, killing” - literally what Zelensky’s regime is doing.
Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done.
Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.
In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted
I know I know, all of us would gladly die for your interests, and those of us who wouldn’t are Russian agents.
Woah… Holy shit, you actually said that… “kidnapping, torturing, killing” - literally what Zelensky’s regime is doing.
So you want to sell me one incident that is acknowledged and is being investigated as a gotcha to discredit the systematic and widespread torture the Russian state is employing? You really are dense.
Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.
And again, you want to sell me one incident that is being investigated as a gotcha to the illegal and widespread use of tear gas by Russia in this war? Not beating my accusation there, you are.
So you want to sell me one incident
Holy fuck, and you are telling me that I’m dense… That’s what happens every single day, it’s in the mainstream western media for a long time now - https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html. Zelensky’s regime kidnaps and beats people every single day, thanks to your support.
How many accidents would be enough for you to admit that Zelensky is terrorizing Ukrainians with your support? That’s a rhetorical question of course, obviously Zelensky can do whatever he wants as long as Russians are dying as well, right?How about enough for a UN report on torture like for Russia you clown?
Got it, Zelensky can kidnap, torture and murder people until UN releases a report on it. Thanks for clarification. At least you set some red line, usually its simple “to the last Ukrainian” kind of thing :/
Yes comrade, I too envision Zelensky personally pressimg a gun to the temple of every Ukrainian that refuses to get drafted. What a despicable behavior, to make out the victim of an invasion to be the perpetrator.
There is exactly one person that can end the invasion with the snap of a finger, and that person is Putin.
You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for
everyoneRussia.They’re not leaving until NATO and Ukraine abandons NATO membership, but they are leaving as soon as they do. Why fight for that purpose?
“You don’t need to be protected from us” he said while invading.
Yeah, again, not a winning argument here.
You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for everyone Russia.
Why are you trying to make me responsible for the invasion? How is this my fault? How is this fault of every other (well, non-Nazi ones anyway) Ukrainian? Why do you support terrorizing, murdering and torturing all of us?
Well since I said “you” and you aren’t the entire population of Ukraine (I assume, but maybe you do in fact contain multitudes) I don’t see how this is relevant at all!
One has to be an utterly gullible racist to believe in the meat wave assaults narrative https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng-trl
If you can’t even read the first two paragraphs of your own source
Mediazona, in collaboration with BBC News Russian service and a team of volunteers, maintains a named list of deceased Russian military personnel. This list is compiled from verified, publicly available sources, including social media posts by family members, local news reports, and official announcements from regional authorities. This list is not exhaustive, as not every military death becomes public knowledge.
To provide a more comprehensive picture of the war’s impact, we offer a second figure: an estimate of excess mortality among men, based on Probate registry data. This method was developed in collaboration with Meduza, to address the limitations of relying solely on publicly reported deaths.Yeah, these are estimates based on actual evidence, as opposed to made up numbers. It’s not exhaustive, but it gives a realistic idea of the scale of casualties. Meanwhile, there is zero evidence for any kinds of meat waves. There’s not a single video of that happening from the past 3 years of the war. It’s a narrative that only the most gullible people could believe. The reality is that this is a war of attrition where vast majority of casualties come from artillery and Russia enjoys a 10x artillery advantage.
Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything? It sure would change the context of everything you were saying if there was some kind of external event that made these things happen and they aren’t just occurring in a vacuum! Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about, almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything?
Yeah, it’s cool that it justifies all the atrocities and tortures of his regime, right? Kidnapping people off the streets, beating them, holding them in basements for multiple days. Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.
Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about
Why wouldn’t you specify what I’m lying about? :)
almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!
I mean I guess that’s true. I’m indeed part of such a group - a group of people who would like to not get murdered along with their entire families and all their friends by Zelensky’s regime…
Assuming you’re coming from a place of arguing in good faith, you raise an important point. We must always scrutinize the alignment of our means with the ideals of our ends. And in war, even with a just cause of repelling invaders and securing a people’s future, there is a spectrum of injustice against their people that leaders must weigh against achieving these goals. Conscription is a good example of this. War makes monsters of even the most well intentioned. However, we must consider the alternatives that appeal most to us with equal scrutiny, using history as our guide. If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example? I am not qualified to say what are better choices. I just know that when a superior force invades you, the grim situation that results means that any choice you make as a leader will involve harm to your people.
If Zelensky surrendered at the very outset, it would have avoided this particular bloody war, but what injustice would it have incurred for the Ukranian people? If Zelensky sued for peace terms and conceded territory 2 years ago instead of leaning into conscription, what harms does it risk for the Ukranian people and their long term security using Crimea as an example?
The answer to these questions is obvious given that whatever deal Ukraine ends up with is going to be strictly worse than it would’ve been at the start of the war. All Zelensky accomplished was to destroy his country, and to ensure that millions of people died or had their lives ruined to achieve a worse long term outcome for Ukraine.
The answer to those questions (surrender at oustset ￫ what injustice, what harms) is not obvious, please spell it out.
The answer is obvious, there was no scenario where Ukraine could have won the war. The only possible thing that could’ve happened was precisely what we see happening. Pretty much anybody with even a minimal understanding of the situation understood this before the war started. Here’s how Obama put it back in 2016
I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country, if you have proof of this you should probably like, reveal it or something, that would be kind of a big news story!
I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country
Literally never said that, ok :)
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!
Lol, really?
Russia is doing “Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.”?
Woah, now I see why everyone hates Russia! If Russia really has this power of forbidding people to leave the territory they do not control - we really need to destroy them at all cost, this power is too dangerous for anyone to have it… /sNice work cherry picking the single item on the list that doesn’t fit, you sure aren’t beating the allegations today!
I… are you accusing him of losing the war because he enjoys it?
He’s losing it because his western sponsors won’t let him negotiate a peace deal (that the majority OF HIS COUNTRY wants, regardless of what armchair chicken hawks think they should do). If he had tried at any point, he would have gotten deposed (or worse) like they deposed Yanukovich in 2014.
Okay, I’m moving into your living room and shooting your dog. If you or your family try to stop me, you’re a sadistic clown apparently.
Okay, I’m moving into your living room and shooting your dog. If you or your family try to stop me, you’re a sadistic clown apparently.
Please tell me more about this analogy of yours.
He is a sadistic clown because he turned country into a mass prison where he kidnaps people off the streets, beats them and send them to the meatgrinder to die. And those who don’t like it are literally tortured. All while you cheer his efforts.
Until somehow the world order changes and states dissolve into something else, drafts are a fact of life. One of the prices you pay for having a state provide you with stable infrastructure, transportation, fire, medical, law enforcement, property rights, etc. etc. is the possibility that one day you may be called upon to defend that state.
Your beef is with the systems we have, not Zelensky in particular.
No, my “beef” is with Zelensky in particular, he is the one who actively tries to exterminate me and every other Ukrainian.
You understand that just posting a bunch of bullshit links with bad takes doesn’t make it true.
Zelensky is spreading Putler propaganda again. SMH
It’s not necessary to reclaim every kilometre with fighting. If Russia is brought to it’s knees financially, the peace can still be achieved.
Just look at ww1. For its entirety, the front was in France and Belgium and Germany held french territory. They still lost. And the Atlantic blockade and sanctions were a big part of that.
