There are tons of reasons (like only having two parties, gerrymandering, election interference, etc.) but just focusing on online discourse, in my humble opinion, it comes down to two things:
Messaging: The Democrats suck so much at this that it’s cliché to use this as a criticism. Bernie should be the perfect role model for this, he has been relentless in his message about what all of this really is: class war. But both parties are corrupted to the core with corporate influence, and they can never allow the discourse to go there. Democrats just let Republicans set the tone as they like, and the entire Democratic base falls for it. Leftism has always been associated with fighting the power and representing everyday working people, but you guys let them turn this around and make themselves the “cool kids.” Which brings me to my next point.
Purity Tests: The American left has spent the last 15 years antagonizing and doing purity tests on anyone who doesn’t fit the mold, even if they are 99% aligned on everything else. Again, the Republicans understood the assignment and embraced everybody they could by just saying what people wanted to hear. They knew that the hard part is getting people in first, and the rest is easy.
But the Left have pretty much made it impossible to like it, especially with their inability to be critical of their own issues and the tendency toward grandstanding. It may come as a surprise, but 90% of people hate genocides and all the other problems plaguing the world, people just don’t agree on how to address them. However, if you only listen to the discourse coming from the American left, it seems like they believe they are the only ones who are rightful.
Leftism in Europe works because we are able to compromise and work with different people in the name of progress. You guys will never be able to mount a true opposition because you need everybody, including people you disagree with. And you guys have shown that you would rather shoot yourselves in the foot than do this.
You’re not going to believe this, but other than your point on genocide, Hasan agrees with you. But I don’t want to get bogged down on an individual. He’s a big boy, he can defend himself.
You’re right the purity testing can be counterproductive. For example the way the democrats pushed away Joe Rogan’s endorsement of Bernie Sanders in 2020. Though, I think that was mainly an excuse from centrists so they wouldn’t have to deal with Bernie.
As for the part about genocide. I gotta say that’s a red line for me. I cannot support a candidate that supports a genocide. It’s as black-and-white as slavery was in the 1850s or the Nazi genocide against the Jews in the 1940s. The political center must grapple with the moral gravity of the situation.
If the moral argument against genocide isn’t enough for you, then perhaps you can be swayed by an electoral one. Even if the democrats had managed to win the other swing-states they could not have won this election without Michigan. There is a fairly sizable Arab community in Michigan that can swing the state. You cannot expect the Arab community of Michigan to vote for the democrats when they had many family members living in Gaza. The centrists in the Democratic Party chose to kill their own collation, the left saying they wouldn’t vote for democrats in solidarity with those Arabs were trying to stop them from destroying their own coalition.
I’m not sure I buy that leftism in Europe is currently working well. Yes, after fascism was defeated in the early 20th century —largely by Soviet and US forces— the European left had many more successes than the US left did. But in the last decade or so the European left has not been in a particularly better position than the democrats in the US.
In France, Macron sided with a Conservative Party to push out the left even though the left had a bigger mandate, all while LePenn remains a growing threat. In England, Labour pushed out Jeremy Corbin, the Reform party remains a growing threat. In Germany, the AfD is a growing threat. In Italy, Meloni is currently in power. The left in Europe does not seem to be doing well.
At the risk of pushing the scope of this conversation too far. There is also growing militarism in Europe that I am quite concerned about. In response to Russian aggression and the US abandonment of that conflict, there is a growing desire for Europe to build its own military industrial complex. That’s something I’ve seen little resistance to from the European left thus far. Of course I do understand the desire to defend yourselves from Russia. But the economic forces that you’re unleashing when you do are something that has the potential to play into the hands of the rising tide of fascism within Europe. There is a great risk that if you create a European military industrial complex that it will eat all the social safety nets that the European left won in the middle of the 20th century. To me as an outside observer it seems like this is where the compromises of the European left are headed.
I do agree you’re right about Bernie though. That is the direction the democrats should have taken. I just hope that wasn’t the last off-ramp from fascism.
Honestly, you’re proving my point. If you people still think you can afford to be incompressible single-issue voters when it comes to defending democracy, seems like you’ve already lost your country.
Bernie himself said he’d support Trump on any bill that genuinely helps working people. Yet, you won’t vote for a candidate who, at the very least, gives you and others a chance to fight another day. Trump won, and the party is over. Is the Michigan Muslim community better off now compared to six months ago? He’s already implemented nearly 50% of Project 2025, and you’re all still spinning.
It’s disappointing to see Europe reacting this way, but it’s directly tied to America and your inability to get your shit together. You’re concerned about how effective the left in Europe has been, and I’d say they’re doing pretty well. Their opposition roles are working, as seen in how the far right has been contained by coalitions, despite significant losses in some countries.
And where are the protests? Countries like Serbia and Hungary are seeing massive protests despite government oppression. The world is telling America “Your democracy is in dying RIGHT NOW!” and you’re wondering if 2016 was the last ramp off. 💀💀💀
The reason I think 2016 was the last off-ramp is mainly because of conversations like this. The democrats could not have won in 2024 without the Arab vote in Michigan. You would be a single issue voter too if your mother, your father, your brother or, your lover was killed in a genocide with arms provided by the Biden administration. That is already fascism which you are engaging in apologia for. The Biden administration was no reprieve for some of us whose lives you’ve already disregarded.
I can only imagine the outrage coming from liberals if the same thing had happened in Israel and Trump had been in office. But Biden does it and you shrug it off.
The protests aren’t coming because civil society in the US has been destroyed by decades of neoliberal compromise with the right. American democracy wasn’t killed in a single election it was whittled down over decades of compromising with the right. Arguably going back to the new deal. The same thing is happening in Europe albeit more slowly.
There are tons of reasons (like only having two parties, gerrymandering, election interference, etc.) but just focusing on online discourse, in my humble opinion, it comes down to two things:
Messaging: The Democrats suck so much at this that it’s cliché to use this as a criticism. Bernie should be the perfect role model for this, he has been relentless in his message about what all of this really is: class war. But both parties are corrupted to the core with corporate influence, and they can never allow the discourse to go there. Democrats just let Republicans set the tone as they like, and the entire Democratic base falls for it. Leftism has always been associated with fighting the power and representing everyday working people, but you guys let them turn this around and make themselves the “cool kids.” Which brings me to my next point.
Purity Tests: The American left has spent the last 15 years antagonizing and doing purity tests on anyone who doesn’t fit the mold, even if they are 99% aligned on everything else. Again, the Republicans understood the assignment and embraced everybody they could by just saying what people wanted to hear. They knew that the hard part is getting people in first, and the rest is easy. But the Left have pretty much made it impossible to like it, especially with their inability to be critical of their own issues and the tendency toward grandstanding. It may come as a surprise, but 90% of people hate genocides and all the other problems plaguing the world, people just don’t agree on how to address them. However, if you only listen to the discourse coming from the American left, it seems like they believe they are the only ones who are rightful.
Leftism in Europe works because we are able to compromise and work with different people in the name of progress. You guys will never be able to mount a true opposition because you need everybody, including people you disagree with. And you guys have shown that you would rather shoot yourselves in the foot than do this.
You’re not going to believe this, but other than your point on genocide, Hasan agrees with you. But I don’t want to get bogged down on an individual. He’s a big boy, he can defend himself.
You’re right the purity testing can be counterproductive. For example the way the democrats pushed away Joe Rogan’s endorsement of Bernie Sanders in 2020. Though, I think that was mainly an excuse from centrists so they wouldn’t have to deal with Bernie.
As for the part about genocide. I gotta say that’s a red line for me. I cannot support a candidate that supports a genocide. It’s as black-and-white as slavery was in the 1850s or the Nazi genocide against the Jews in the 1940s. The political center must grapple with the moral gravity of the situation.
If the moral argument against genocide isn’t enough for you, then perhaps you can be swayed by an electoral one. Even if the democrats had managed to win the other swing-states they could not have won this election without Michigan. There is a fairly sizable Arab community in Michigan that can swing the state. You cannot expect the Arab community of Michigan to vote for the democrats when they had many family members living in Gaza. The centrists in the Democratic Party chose to kill their own collation, the left saying they wouldn’t vote for democrats in solidarity with those Arabs were trying to stop them from destroying their own coalition.
I’m not sure I buy that leftism in Europe is currently working well. Yes, after fascism was defeated in the early 20th century —largely by Soviet and US forces— the European left had many more successes than the US left did. But in the last decade or so the European left has not been in a particularly better position than the democrats in the US.
In France, Macron sided with a Conservative Party to push out the left even though the left had a bigger mandate, all while LePenn remains a growing threat. In England, Labour pushed out Jeremy Corbin, the Reform party remains a growing threat. In Germany, the AfD is a growing threat. In Italy, Meloni is currently in power. The left in Europe does not seem to be doing well.
At the risk of pushing the scope of this conversation too far. There is also growing militarism in Europe that I am quite concerned about. In response to Russian aggression and the US abandonment of that conflict, there is a growing desire for Europe to build its own military industrial complex. That’s something I’ve seen little resistance to from the European left thus far. Of course I do understand the desire to defend yourselves from Russia. But the economic forces that you’re unleashing when you do are something that has the potential to play into the hands of the rising tide of fascism within Europe. There is a great risk that if you create a European military industrial complex that it will eat all the social safety nets that the European left won in the middle of the 20th century. To me as an outside observer it seems like this is where the compromises of the European left are headed.
I do agree you’re right about Bernie though. That is the direction the democrats should have taken. I just hope that wasn’t the last off-ramp from fascism.
Honestly, you’re proving my point. If you people still think you can afford to be incompressible single-issue voters when it comes to defending democracy, seems like you’ve already lost your country.
Bernie himself said he’d support Trump on any bill that genuinely helps working people. Yet, you won’t vote for a candidate who, at the very least, gives you and others a chance to fight another day. Trump won, and the party is over. Is the Michigan Muslim community better off now compared to six months ago? He’s already implemented nearly 50% of Project 2025, and you’re all still spinning.
It’s disappointing to see Europe reacting this way, but it’s directly tied to America and your inability to get your shit together. You’re concerned about how effective the left in Europe has been, and I’d say they’re doing pretty well. Their opposition roles are working, as seen in how the far right has been contained by coalitions, despite significant losses in some countries.
And where are the protests? Countries like Serbia and Hungary are seeing massive protests despite government oppression. The world is telling America “Your democracy is in dying RIGHT NOW!” and you’re wondering if 2016 was the last ramp off. 💀💀💀
The reason I think 2016 was the last off-ramp is mainly because of conversations like this. The democrats could not have won in 2024 without the Arab vote in Michigan. You would be a single issue voter too if your mother, your father, your brother or, your lover was killed in a genocide with arms provided by the Biden administration. That is already fascism which you are engaging in apologia for. The Biden administration was no reprieve for some of us whose lives you’ve already disregarded.
I can only imagine the outrage coming from liberals if the same thing had happened in Israel and Trump had been in office. But Biden does it and you shrug it off.
The protests aren’t coming because civil society in the US has been destroyed by decades of neoliberal compromise with the right. American democracy wasn’t killed in a single election it was whittled down over decades of compromising with the right. Arguably going back to the new deal. The same thing is happening in Europe albeit more slowly.