• Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Close but not quite: the correct grammar is to always mention yourself last (with second person coming first if present in the sentence and then third person) and, as you say, use I or me depending on which one it would be if the others weren’t in the sentence.

    Wrong

    “Me and Dave are going spelunking”

    “Remember that Dave, you, and I are going spelunking”

    “This is a picture of Dave and I spelunking”

    Right

    “Dave and I are going spelunking”

    “Remember that you, Dave, and I are going spelunking”

    “This is a picture of Dave and me spelunking”

    • tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip
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      1 year ago

      the correct grammar is to always mention yourself last

      That was exactly why I mentioned this case. What exactly separates the grammar of “I (and Dave) am going” vs “Dave (and I) is going”? They’re both “subject plus verb”, indicating that the order of the coordinations is a matter of style, not grammar.

      As to the subjective vs objective cases, the reasons I brought that up is that grammar seeks to explain the rules of language as native speakers use it. Therefore, the only “wrong” grammar is constructions that natives wouldn’t use, such as (eg) mimicking a Japanese grammar structure and saying “I the house to go.” Since native speakers often use cases like “Me and Dave are going spelunking”, it’s not wrong, merely a different register of speaking.

      Accepting only prestige dialects as “correct” grammar is why people continue to think things like “black people don’t speak right”, despite the fact that African American English has the same consistency of grammar that the prestige dialect does.

      • pitninja@lemmy.pit.ninja
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        1 year ago

        I would encourage people to code switch rather than adhere to one style of language over another in every case. Imho, it’s kind of problematic that language itself has become racialized in America to the point where people can actually be criticized or made fun of for speaking in the “wrong” style associated with their perceived ethnic background.

      • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        What exactly separates the grammar of “I (and Dave) am going” vs “Dave (and I) is going”?

        The same thing that seperates the first one from “going Dave am I and”. Word order matters.

        the order of the coordinations is a matter of style, not grammar.

        Categorically false

        Therefore, the only “wrong” grammar is constructions that natives wouldn’t use

        Wrong again. Plenty of native speakers of just about every single language there is have atrocious grammar. Native ≠ correct grammar.

        It’s not wrong, merely a different register of speaking

        It’s wrong when it comes to grammar. Whether or not gramatically incorrect colloquial speech is acceptable and sometimes even preferable to being gramatically correct (it is in most cases, but in some it can be very grating) is a different matter entirely.

        Accepting only prestige dialects as “correct” grammar

        Nobody said anything about dialect

        people continue to think things like "black people don’t speak right

        As I mentioned earlier, colloquial speech can be as good as or better than gramatically correct speech in some cases.

        You’re mixing up a whole lot of things that aren’t grammar and just generally being wildly wrong all over the place.

          • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Just because there is no central authority does not mean there is no general consensus. English classes from elementary school to university aren’t accidentally in line with each other by some weird coincidence.

            Descriptivism has a place in the evolution of language, but not in a wholesale “everything native speakers might say is grammatically correct if they are understood”.

            • tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip
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              1 year ago

              English classes from elementary school to university aren’t accidentally in line with each other by some weird coincidence.

              So who has the authority when experts disagree? Like I said, no one is saying “I house go” but some people think “Give this to whomever comes here first” is correct while others argue for “whoever”. Descriptivism by definition seeks to explain how language functions. Prescriptivism only works within a narrowly defined framework, like APA or MLA for example, but even within those there’s disagreement.