Seems to me like my first summary was correct.
Your point (paraphrased) is as follows:
“Yes, this looks like genocide, but it isn’t because Israel said it’s not and because they said they are killing Hamas members.”
At least we both agree that withholding food, meds, and basic needs from the population shows genocidal intent.
Guess we’ll just have to wait for the court to decide.
Would you accept the ICJ decision?
Absolutely would accept the ICJ decision. I said elsewhere I think in this thread that if it comes out the other way, I would read it and figure out what information I didn’t have or failed to appreciate right now, which could have helped me reach a more accurate assessment of things.
One thing I know we both lack is the real intelligence behind these strikes. I’ll tell you though, I tend to believe most of Israel’s claims, not because of some intangible trust of Israel or Bibi, but because they make sense.
The tunnels are massive and elaborate. Hamas has tens of thousands of fighters. Tens of thousands of rockets, rocket launchers, along with all sorts of guns and ammo. All those fighters and weapons are somewhere in Gaza.
If they are just shooting missiles at random, that’s a war crime. They say they are not doing that and based on the evidence so far I find that that to be credible. Sometimes when the US launches an air strike or drone strike, they have human intelligence or signals intelligence on a target, and depending on the value of the target, if he’s with his family, or at church, the strike may or may not go ahead. With Hamas engaged in a strategy of subterranean, urban warfare and a policy of martyrdom and using human shields and hostages, I find Hamas and its affiliates responsible for the high number of civilian casualties.
I appreciate your engagement here and willingness to hear me out, as a random internet stranger.
I find it hard to believe Israel after they faked evidence and spread misinformation purposefully. I also find it hard to trust the word of a military official (that in my opinion is sending his/her soldiers to commit genocide) over hours and hours and hours of footage showing Palestinian children under the rubble and full families under flattened houses, or journalists plainly attacked and killed without any justification or warning or any fighters in their vicinity. Not to mention bombing ambulances and killing already critically wounded people.
One eye opener for me was Breaking the Silence, an organization that collects testimonies from previous or current IDF soldiers. The things the IDF does in horrendous. Torture and humiliation for no other purpose but to degrade Palestinians. I highly recommend checking it out especially those who had served in Hebron.
I also think the vast majority of other law experts disagree with you completely. I don’t mean on the stuff about Hamas (all of what you said about the tunnels is most likely true), but about the proportionality of the attacks that have killed over 10k children, in shelters and schools. It shows that the IDF has no regard for Palestinian lives, and some evidence from October 7th shows that some IDF had no regard for Israeli lives either and ended up killing many people they were sent to protect. I am sorry but it’s both impossible and unreasonable for me to have trust in the Israeli government or military (not just Bibi, we seem to both agree he is not exactly very bright).
There is no proportionality in having killed the largest number of medical professonals, UN workers, and journalists.
Thank you too for engaging in the discussion. I sometimes slip into this dark mood on the internet but there is no reason to turn this places into Reddit which we all probably left.
Seems to me like my first summary was correct. Your point (paraphrased) is as follows:
“Yes, this looks like genocide, but it isn’t because Israel said it’s not and because they said they are killing Hamas members.”
At least we both agree that withholding food, meds, and basic needs from the population shows genocidal intent. Guess we’ll just have to wait for the court to decide. Would you accept the ICJ decision?
Absolutely would accept the ICJ decision. I said elsewhere I think in this thread that if it comes out the other way, I would read it and figure out what information I didn’t have or failed to appreciate right now, which could have helped me reach a more accurate assessment of things.
One thing I know we both lack is the real intelligence behind these strikes. I’ll tell you though, I tend to believe most of Israel’s claims, not because of some intangible trust of Israel or Bibi, but because they make sense.
The tunnels are massive and elaborate. Hamas has tens of thousands of fighters. Tens of thousands of rockets, rocket launchers, along with all sorts of guns and ammo. All those fighters and weapons are somewhere in Gaza.
If they are just shooting missiles at random, that’s a war crime. They say they are not doing that and based on the evidence so far I find that that to be credible. Sometimes when the US launches an air strike or drone strike, they have human intelligence or signals intelligence on a target, and depending on the value of the target, if he’s with his family, or at church, the strike may or may not go ahead. With Hamas engaged in a strategy of subterranean, urban warfare and a policy of martyrdom and using human shields and hostages, I find Hamas and its affiliates responsible for the high number of civilian casualties.
I appreciate your engagement here and willingness to hear me out, as a random internet stranger.
I find it hard to believe Israel after they faked evidence and spread misinformation purposefully. I also find it hard to trust the word of a military official (that in my opinion is sending his/her soldiers to commit genocide) over hours and hours and hours of footage showing Palestinian children under the rubble and full families under flattened houses, or journalists plainly attacked and killed without any justification or warning or any fighters in their vicinity. Not to mention bombing ambulances and killing already critically wounded people.
One eye opener for me was Breaking the Silence, an organization that collects testimonies from previous or current IDF soldiers. The things the IDF does in horrendous. Torture and humiliation for no other purpose but to degrade Palestinians. I highly recommend checking it out especially those who had served in Hebron.
I also think the vast majority of other law experts disagree with you completely. I don’t mean on the stuff about Hamas (all of what you said about the tunnels is most likely true), but about the proportionality of the attacks that have killed over 10k children, in shelters and schools. It shows that the IDF has no regard for Palestinian lives, and some evidence from October 7th shows that some IDF had no regard for Israeli lives either and ended up killing many people they were sent to protect. I am sorry but it’s both impossible and unreasonable for me to have trust in the Israeli government or military (not just Bibi, we seem to both agree he is not exactly very bright).
There is no proportionality in having killed the largest number of medical professonals, UN workers, and journalists.
Thank you too for engaging in the discussion. I sometimes slip into this dark mood on the internet but there is no reason to turn this places into Reddit which we all probably left.
I will definitely check out those interviews.