I don’t really understand the appeal of Hollow Knight. Like don’t get me wrong, I loved it, but having played lots of other Metroidvanias, including the classic Symphony of the Night, it didn’t rock my world or reshape the paradigm that existed. It is a good Metroidvania alongside others.
Is the appeal a kind of generational thing—people who hadn’t played a lot of those predecessors but experienced this one first?
Edit: I appreciate the responses and everyone’s unique perspective!
On the flipside, I’m a huge metroidvania fan and Hollow Knight is clearly one of the best to ever do it in my opinion. It also totally transformed the landscape of metroidvanias, with subsequent games imitating it left and right.
The fact that silksong has remained more or less the #1 wishlisted game on steam since it was announced speaks to the broader cultural impact of the game. Hollow knight really elevated metroidvanias as a genre
Hollow Knight is clearly one of the best to ever do it in my opinion. It also totally transformed the landscape of metroidvanias, with subsequent games imitating it left and right.
Can you expand on this? I feel like there’s some interesting perspective in there.
And I will probably play Silksong eventually, too but I’m just trying to understand why people think it stands above the rest.
Aside from the dozens of direct shameless hollow knight clones, more “legitimate” artistic efforts are unmistakably if not explicitly influenced by it in a massive way. I think Nine Sols is probably the apotheosis of this. Will of the Wisps was famously accused of completely copying HK, much to the ire of the devs lol.
It’s also quite complicated because HK and the souls genre share so much DNA. And Dark Souls itself owes much of what makes it great to metroidvanias. So with these three things in mind (soulslikes, metroidvanias, and HK itself) which are all so interconnected, my argument is basically contingent upon whether or not HK is a particularly strong inflection point in gaming as a whole.
I think it clearly is, and I think it’s because it effectively culminated everything about the genre that we’ve come to love while also contributing new things to it. It was made with absolute reverence for the style, with the devs saying more than anything they wanted to create a world where players could get truly and completely lost. The fact that the art and music are impeccable seals the deal for most people
I would argue Animal Well is another such inflection point in gaming, and also probably the best example of a modern metroidvania that strongly diverges from HK
I’m not OP, but Hollow Knight is a master-class of world design imo. The world is absolutely massive and seamlessly connected, it feels like it never ends until you finally reach the end game. Seeing it loop back on itself 10+ hours later is something I almost never see anywhere else.
The combat is also fairly simple but very tight. There’s a crazy amount of enemy variety and it has some of the most exciting bosses in the genre - especially if you’re going for the true ending. I played so much of the genre but nothing gave me the feeling HK did. I finished it 3 times.
It was, imo, the founder of the Vania part of Metroidvanias, so they didn’t have the benefit of standing upon many shoulders. Hollow Knight is a great spiritual successor to that endeavor, and I agree that they took much of what made SotN great and improved upon it.
It’s interesting watching people get so excited by HK, I have to wonder if that’s what it was like when SotN and successive games came out.
Symphony of the Night is, in fact, the origin of the term Metroidvania but not in the way you might think. Castlevania pre SotN was a very different series with none of the elements associated with “metroidvania”, so people started calling SOTN a “metroid-vania” derogatorily, as a Castlevania that was trying to ape Metroid. The term had staying power for the genre because what the fuck else are you gonna call them, it was before slapping -like on everything was popular but after calling stuff “clones” had fallen out of favor. No, “search action” will never be a thing. And you’re not just gonna call them Metroids because that’s one specific series. So after future Castlevanias had Metroidy stuff in them, it became a genre name.
I enjoyed the difficulty of hollow knight. It was tough as nails in spots but I felt fair. I also dug the art/music/atmosphere. It was just unique enough yet familiar.
Hollow Knight is appropriately moody for the genre. Many Metroidvanias are boring because they lack character that would motivate you to do Metroidvania levels of backtracking. Some games tried to copy Hollow Knight vibes specifically, for example Ender Lillies, but nobody managed to even match it.
The game itself is not innovative but very polished, like Blizzard game from the old times. I think it was one of the first games in the genre that picked up some cues from Soulsborne games too, before formula was overdone, hence why it is so fondly remembered.
Hollow Knight also felt like it was in dialogue with the Souls series, because the Souls series iterated on a ton of Metroid’s mechanics in a new space. So it took Souls’ “what if Metroid mapping, lonely mysterious vibes, backtracking and key/locks, but slower paced 3d combat and the keys aren’t weapons” and went “Ok but what if we used the lessons we learned from you to improve the Super Metroid formula that inspired you?”
The art style is great, and the ability to choose your loadout adds a unique twist to how Metroidvanias usually work. I had a good time playing it, and it reminded me a lot of when I played Symphony of the Night many years ago.
Many Metroidvanias are boring because they lack character that would motivate you to do Metroidvania levels of backtracking.
This is a good point, and likely why I’ve not gotten that into many of the more recent ones (with some exceptions). I suppose in that sense, it’s revolutionary next to many of its contemporaries.
I’m an old gamer (almost 50) and I don’t have time to play every game out there. I know that I should play Symphony of the Night but haven’t had time to try it yet, but I will.
Hollow Knight is fun for me because it’s not complicated, it’s pretty, the music is nice (I bought it on Bandcamp), and it’s a slow game with a lot of levels and a quiet and/or peaceful lore. I haven’t played it for a long time (any kind of game actually because I’m busy) but I know that when I try it again, it will be there as usual, and I will be able to explore old or new levels whether I have 10 minutes or 2 hours to play.
I don’t know if it’s a good metroidvania and I don’t think I care. I would put it on the same level as Shantae: there is no rush, have fun. You may say that it’s good for old people and I would agree. There are slow metroidvanias (Hollow Knight, Shantae, Guacamele 1/2) and fast metroidvania (Shovel Knight maybe) where you have to play regularly or you may forget what the thing is all about. With Hollow Knight, the story will stay in my head for a long time.
Last but not least, I would put Metroid (and the 2D variants: SNES, GBA) in the slow category since you can stop playing for some time and get back to the story without too much hassle. I guess it depends whether you prefer the Metroid OR the Vania side of those games.
If you liked Hollow Knight, you should give Symphony of the Night a try sometime. The gameplay loop is similar, and like Hollow Night, there’s no hurry.
I think they’re both good, with the older one being the one that, imo, defined the Vania side of things. But being on the older side myself, I understand having limited time to take on new games!
I played the original CastleVania (Vampire Killer) back in the 8 bit days and silksong is among my top 5 favorite games of the decade I’d say. It’s not technically revolutionary maybe but the gameplay is tweaked to near perfection, and the art style and FromSoftware style storytelling is just wonderful. Of course that’s a matter of taste.
I think probably people get wrapped up in the art and music, and rightfully so. But (having more that 100% completion, mind you) there were aspects of the level design and bosses that really did not sit well with me. I couldn’t help but feel like “it’s just Metroid but worse” in a lot of aspects.
I don’t really understand the appeal of Hollow Knight. Like don’t get me wrong, I loved it, but having played lots of other Metroidvanias, including the classic Symphony of the Night, it didn’t rock my world or reshape the paradigm that existed. It is a good Metroidvania alongside others.
Is the appeal a kind of generational thing—people who hadn’t played a lot of those predecessors but experienced this one first?
Edit: I appreciate the responses and everyone’s unique perspective!
On the flipside, I’m a huge metroidvania fan and Hollow Knight is clearly one of the best to ever do it in my opinion. It also totally transformed the landscape of metroidvanias, with subsequent games imitating it left and right.
The fact that silksong has remained more or less the #1 wishlisted game on steam since it was announced speaks to the broader cultural impact of the game. Hollow knight really elevated metroidvanias as a genre
Can you expand on this? I feel like there’s some interesting perspective in there.
And I will probably play Silksong eventually, too but I’m just trying to understand why people think it stands above the rest.
Aside from the dozens of direct shameless hollow knight clones, more “legitimate” artistic efforts are unmistakably if not explicitly influenced by it in a massive way. I think Nine Sols is probably the apotheosis of this. Will of the Wisps was famously accused of completely copying HK, much to the ire of the devs lol.
It’s also quite complicated because HK and the souls genre share so much DNA. And Dark Souls itself owes much of what makes it great to metroidvanias. So with these three things in mind (soulslikes, metroidvanias, and HK itself) which are all so interconnected, my argument is basically contingent upon whether or not HK is a particularly strong inflection point in gaming as a whole.
I think it clearly is, and I think it’s because it effectively culminated everything about the genre that we’ve come to love while also contributing new things to it. It was made with absolute reverence for the style, with the devs saying more than anything they wanted to create a world where players could get truly and completely lost. The fact that the art and music are impeccable seals the deal for most people
I would argue Animal Well is another such inflection point in gaming, and also probably the best example of a modern metroidvania that strongly diverges from HK
Animal Well is on my wishlist, so I’ll look forward to that someday!
I’m not OP, but Hollow Knight is a master-class of world design imo. The world is absolutely massive and seamlessly connected, it feels like it never ends until you finally reach the end game. Seeing it loop back on itself 10+ hours later is something I almost never see anywhere else.
The combat is also fairly simple but very tight. There’s a crazy amount of enemy variety and it has some of the most exciting bosses in the genre - especially if you’re going for the true ending. I played so much of the genre but nothing gave me the feeling HK did. I finished it 3 times.
Do give Symphony of the Night a try sometime! You’d probably enjoy it.
I have! and it’s a great game but still not quite the level of HK
It was, imo, the founder of the Vania part of Metroidvanias, so they didn’t have the benefit of standing upon many shoulders. Hollow Knight is a great spiritual successor to that endeavor, and I agree that they took much of what made SotN great and improved upon it.
It’s interesting watching people get so excited by HK, I have to wonder if that’s what it was like when SotN and successive games came out.
Symphony of the Night is, in fact, the origin of the term Metroidvania but not in the way you might think. Castlevania pre SotN was a very different series with none of the elements associated with “metroidvania”, so people started calling SOTN a “metroid-vania” derogatorily, as a Castlevania that was trying to ape Metroid. The term had staying power for the genre because what the fuck else are you gonna call them, it was before slapping -like on everything was popular but after calling stuff “clones” had fallen out of favor. No, “search action” will never be a thing. And you’re not just gonna call them Metroids because that’s one specific series. So after future Castlevanias had Metroidy stuff in them, it became a genre name.
Neat!
I enjoyed the difficulty of hollow knight. It was tough as nails in spots but I felt fair. I also dug the art/music/atmosphere. It was just unique enough yet familiar.
Yes I’m a big fan obviously.
It is certainly unique in its art direction. One of the blessings of indie games!
Hollow Knight is appropriately moody for the genre. Many Metroidvanias are boring because they lack character that would motivate you to do Metroidvania levels of backtracking. Some games tried to copy Hollow Knight vibes specifically, for example Ender Lillies, but nobody managed to even match it.
The game itself is not innovative but very polished, like Blizzard game from the old times. I think it was one of the first games in the genre that picked up some cues from Soulsborne games too, before formula was overdone, hence why it is so fondly remembered.
Hollow Knight also felt like it was in dialogue with the Souls series, because the Souls series iterated on a ton of Metroid’s mechanics in a new space. So it took Souls’ “what if Metroid mapping, lonely mysterious vibes, backtracking and key/locks, but slower paced 3d combat and the keys aren’t weapons” and went “Ok but what if we used the lessons we learned from you to improve the Super Metroid formula that inspired you?”
The art style is great, and the ability to choose your loadout adds a unique twist to how Metroidvanias usually work. I had a good time playing it, and it reminded me a lot of when I played Symphony of the Night many years ago.
This is a good point, and likely why I’ve not gotten that into many of the more recent ones (with some exceptions). I suppose in that sense, it’s revolutionary next to many of its contemporaries.
I’m an old gamer (almost 50) and I don’t have time to play every game out there. I know that I should play Symphony of the Night but haven’t had time to try it yet, but I will.
Hollow Knight is fun for me because it’s not complicated, it’s pretty, the music is nice (I bought it on Bandcamp), and it’s a slow game with a lot of levels and a quiet and/or peaceful lore. I haven’t played it for a long time (any kind of game actually because I’m busy) but I know that when I try it again, it will be there as usual, and I will be able to explore old or new levels whether I have 10 minutes or 2 hours to play.
I don’t know if it’s a good metroidvania and I don’t think I care. I would put it on the same level as Shantae: there is no rush, have fun. You may say that it’s good for old people and I would agree. There are slow metroidvanias (Hollow Knight, Shantae, Guacamele 1/2) and fast metroidvania (Shovel Knight maybe) where you have to play regularly or you may forget what the thing is all about. With Hollow Knight, the story will stay in my head for a long time.
Last but not least, I would put Metroid (and the 2D variants: SNES, GBA) in the slow category since you can stop playing for some time and get back to the story without too much hassle. I guess it depends whether you prefer the Metroid OR the Vania side of those games.
If you liked Hollow Knight, you should give Symphony of the Night a try sometime. The gameplay loop is similar, and like Hollow Night, there’s no hurry.
I think they’re both good, with the older one being the one that, imo, defined the Vania side of things. But being on the older side myself, I understand having limited time to take on new games!
I played the original CastleVania (Vampire Killer) back in the 8 bit days and silksong is among my top 5 favorite games of the decade I’d say. It’s not technically revolutionary maybe but the gameplay is tweaked to near perfection, and the art style and FromSoftware style storytelling is just wonderful. Of course that’s a matter of taste.
Yeah, I’m not shitting on the game, just trying to understand why people are so excited by it.
I just loved how simpled the gameplay is in surface but it gets extremely interesting and challenging once you want to do all the boss rushes :)
I realized the full extent of the work that went into it
I think its the fact that Team Cherry is 4 people
I think probably people get wrapped up in the art and music, and rightfully so. But (having more that 100% completion, mind you) there were aspects of the level design and bosses that really did not sit well with me. I couldn’t help but feel like “it’s just Metroid but worse” in a lot of aspects.