The meme is you can’t do any such thing without being labelled antisemitic
Yup, it’s an issue that goes both ways. Israel has historically used the “antisemite” label as a shield for any criticism. And that has all recently come to a head, where any valid criticism of their literal fucking war crimes is treated the same as if you’re a neo-nazi. You can criticize Israel’s actions without stooping to antisemitism. But that won’t stop Israel (and Israel’s supporters) from labeling you an antisemite anyways.
It’s the same strategy that conservatives have used with things like Critical Race Theory. They work to undefine the term, so anything they don’t like can be labeled as such. Don’t like a classroom lesson? Label it CRT. Since conservatives have been taught to hate CRT, they’ll hate that lesson. Even if the lesson has nothing to do with CRT, that doesn’t matter because the conservative voters have already made up their minds about whether or not they’re against it. Antisemitism has become an undefined term for Israel’s supporters, where anyone they don’t like can simply be labeled an antisemite.
Yuo. Conservatives di this all the time. See: woke, politically correct, commie They use terms as cudgels without concern for meaning
they pride themselves on not being able to even define what woke, CRT etc are in their own words.
chuds.
valid criticism of their literal fucking war crimes
Sir, why do you work for the genocide of the Jewish race? Have you no shame, sir? Have you no decency?
/s
The way israels been acting the last 3 months or so, (and also the 30 years prior) I think one could be forgiven for becoming more antisemitic. I mean, people very justly held heavy prejudice against Germans in the late 1940s and 1950s/60s, even though most obviously weren’t Nazis. Why exactly are Israeli Jews different?
It’s a tough needle to thread, because there is both a lot of antisemitism and a lot of opposition to genocide that is not motivated by antisemitism. Any support for Palestinians is joined by a chorus of calls to end the existence of Israel entirely, something that would require killing a lot of Jewish people. So it’s difficult to untangle the legitimate criticism from the antisemitism.
So I don’t disagree with you, but I also understand why people are quick to slap labels on critics.
Israel is not “Jewish people”. Israel “could” end without a single Jew dying. Also, Jews lived there when it was Palestine. I dunno did they die when it became Israel? How are you arriving at the end of a concept being mass murder?
I think if Israel stopped trying to run itself as an ethnostate they’d be fine. I think there’s an argument that the “concept” of what currently constitutes Israel may be too tainted to realistically save. Many unwilling to admit fault, apologize, and return what was stolen. And many unwilling to forgive them for doing it. It would take real concession and change. Something those in charge don’t want. So the people both Israeli and Palestinian will continue to suffer for the gains of wealthy genocidal bigots.
Many Palestinians were killed or died in the transition when Israel was established.
I agree with you that Israel needs to change, and that they aren’t going to change unless they are forced to change. But the Jewish people living in Israel will not leave peacefully. To “end” Israel is to kill a lot of Jewish people living there.
And the antisemites are counting on everyone making a distinction between the two.
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I can’t seem to find this comment on your user page or anywhere else on lemmy.world
I removed it, thinking that I had phrased it indelicately. The main point of the comment was a link to the Deir Yassin massacre, and maybe I’ll just leave it at that.
There’s no scenario, in any possible world, in which the ‘abolition’ of Israel doesn’t result in the deaths of millions of Jews.
Well, at least absent a secular awakening in the middle east. And that is the real issue here in my view, and I’m not sure why so many people seem to be giving a pass to the extremist elephant in the room here.
There is a difference between possible and likely. And you my friend are misrepresenting the two. It is 100% possible. But it also is unlikely because of all the genocidal ethno statists.
We already saw on October 7th what ordinary Palestinians would do to Jews if given the opportunity.
If the IDF hadn’t (belatedly) put a stop to them, they’d have carried on raping and killing until every last Jew in Israel was dead.
The only hope is that, after this war is over, a comprehensive Denazification programme is implemented in Gaza and the West Bank as well as a Marshall Plan for the reconstruction of Gaza, just like with Nazi Germany. The antisemitism is too deep-seated, widespread, and fundamental to contemporary Palestinian identity to go away by itself.
Can you be any more disingenuous? Hamas does not represent all of Palestinians. Israel does not represent all Jews. And yes October 7th was not good. But it’s awful telling that your timeline of atrocity starts there. And not the thousands upon thousands that were murdered by IDF and Israeli forces before that.
Neither group is good. Neither group is innocent. But Israel really needs to stop acting like a victim. It’s not believable.
Hamas does not represent all of Palestinians.
No, not all, just almost all. 72% endorse the October 7th Holocaust. Support in the West Bank for Hamas has tripled since that date – 52% of Gazans and 85% of West Bank residents support Hamas’ actions in the war. Reuters.
That’s why a Denazification process of Palestinian territories is necessary. Antisemitism is almost hardwired into them, from school textbooks to television, and it needs to be deprogrammed.
And yes October 7th was not good.
Jaw-dropping understatement. Have you seen what they did? It wasn’t just “not good”, it’s one of the most profoundly evil, cruel and barbaric atrocities of the modern era which.
But it’s awful telling that your timeline of atrocity starts there. And not the thousands upon thousands that were murdered by IDF and Israeli forces before that.
I’m very familiar with the history of Israel and Palestine. This war was spurred by October 7th. How many of those thousands were terrorists? Not all, of course, but Israel doesn’t just get off on killing innocent people. Hamas have had total control since Israel left Gaza in 2005, removed all their settlements, and gave them elections. What happened? They voted for Hamas, trashed the place, and spent all of the international aid money on weapons to kill Jews with not a single bomb shelter for their own citizens.
Neither group is good. Neither group is innocent. But Israel really needs to stop acting like a victim. It’s not believable.
The idea that Hamas and Israel are remotely comparable is contemptuous.
There are videos of Palestinian children doing a school play about slaughtering Israelis. And these ffers pretend that you’ve got innocents all around.
Don’t worry, I’m sure a few more Jew-haters will be over in a minute to tell you you’re wrong.
no oct. 7th was Hamas, the 70-year-long occupation and pogroms in the west bank, is what all Jews would do…
oh wait, I don’t follow fascist logic
Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005. Not one settler, not one Israeli police station or IDF base. They had an election, and elected Hamas.
Funnily enough, you are in fact following Fascist logic by repeating Hitler’s theory that Jews, even when they’re absent, in fact control others from behind the scenes in dark hallways.
there are many worlds where the abolition of Israel wouldn’t result in the deaths of Jewish people, unless you swallow the fascist dichotomy of “Israel is the only safe place for Jews” and “Israel is inherently in danger, due to group X”
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Israel “could” end without a single Jew dying
The history of this region proves this to not be the case though. Jews have mostly been chased out of the region a few times with many dead left in the wake.
Jews did not live peacefully before the British mandate ended, there’s a long list of pogroms and assaults leading to many dead in the hundreds of years leading up to the UN establishment of the state.
It would be great if they could live peacefully but history shows that’s a risk they can’t take.
Fuck that. Anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism. Israel is a fascist state with no right to exist. Anyone who associates that fascist state to Jewishness is the true antisemite
Which other nations have no right to exist? Or is it just Israel?
I would guess : ones that disposess the inhabitants for their own gain and then corral the remainders in open air prisons while stripping them of their rights of self determination. Any other state like that would be highly suspect. I think if Russia annexed Ukraine and then walled them in and controlled their electricity, food and everyday freedom, then that would count. All that said, while I think the state of Israel should never have been created in the first place, I absolutely do not agree on the idea of removing the existing state. That would be to visit upon the people of Israel the same horror they visited on the Palestinians. You can’t deplore Israel’s genocidal behavior then wish the same for them
ones that disposess the inhabitants for their own gain and then corral the remainders in open air prisons while stripping them of their rights of self determination.
Gaza isn’t part of Israel and Gazans are not Israeli citizens
It’s an occupied territory.
this only makes it worse, as Israel has defeacto control over the region, same thing with the west bank.
Is it possible to regain legitimacy after doing that, or will the state always be illegitimate?
And how geographically widespread does it have to be?
Because that sounds an awful lot like the US’s historical genocide of the Native Americans and China’s current genocide of the Uyghurs.
And yet you see the celebration of support for someone saying that “Israel has no right to exist.” Although there are some people who believe all national boarders should be abolished, somehow I don’t think that’s what the poster intended. Calling for the destruction of an entire nation of people sounds pretty bigoted to me. If it’s not anti-semitism, then we’re just splitting hairs. It makes it hard to speak out against the actions of Israel alongside people who are calling for Jewish genocide and being cheered on by those around them.
Calling for Israel to not exist does not imply Genocide, it implies disestablishment of a political body.
There is no possible world in which the disestablishment of the state of Israel does not lead to the deaths of millions of Jews. If you want to advocate for the abolition of Israel, you need to accept that and own the consequences.
tish isn’t going to sleep with you.
Eight in ten British Jews consider themselves to be a Zionist. Only six percent do not.
Anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism. Israel is a fascist state with no right to exist.
This is antisemitism on two counts.
- The reason is because you are singling out the only Jewish state as being uniquely lacking legitimacy as a state, and therefore Jews as the only people on this planet who don’t have the right of self-determination. Antizionism would be to call for the destruction of Israel, which is also antisemitic.
- Comparing the only Jewish state to the very regime which murdered more than 6,000,000 Jews is an antisemitic comparison and designed to hurt Jews.
by your logic, disagreeing with any form of theocracy/ethnostate is hate towards the religious/ethnic groups also, previously being the victims don’t change the ability to be the perpetrator later on.
but it’s good to know that anti-Nazi was just racism against Germans, and that historically victimized groups have cart blanch to commit genocide (please ignore the whole justification the Nazis had where they perceived themselves as some form of victims)
Even in the same comment you still can’t help but make antisemitic comparisons between Israeli Jews and Hitler! This is beyond parody
that’s not antisemitic
Comparing Israel to Hitler or Nazi Germany is antisemitic. Glad to clear that up for you.
It’s a tough needle to thread
It really isn’t as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
Sadly, even that is usually too much to ask for, as evidenced by your apparently good faith post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy of assuming that you can’t argue that genocide of Palestinians is a bad thing without people agreeing with you by arguing that genocide of Israeli people would be super neat.
Of course, claiming that what other people say apart from agreeing with you that Palestinians shouldn’t be murdered is the responsibility of you for some reason is in itself an association fallacy.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Anyway: NO it’s NOT difficult to defend Palestinians without being antisemitic and benignly doing so does NOT make you responsible for antisemites agreeing with what you’re saying and then adding a lot that you did NOT say.
It really isn’t as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
How would you know? That’s really my point. Antisemites are using this moment to inject their bigotey into the political discussion.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Case in point. I’ve called what Israel has been foing a genocide from the beginning. I think Netanyahu has committed crimes against humanity and should be deposed.
I also think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas, and a right to prosecute and root out terrorists.
For this, I have been called a bigot from both sides. And I completely understand, because you don’t know if I’m a secret bigot trying to sound reasonable.
I’m not at all suggesting that it makes me responsible for the statements of bigots, nor am I suggesting that anyone else should feel guilty by association as ling as they are challenging the bigotry. If you march shoulder to shoulder with them then yes you are guilty by association. If you tap into their hatred to achieve your political goals, however benign your goals are, you are guilty by association.
And that’s the hard part. I’m not suggesting it’s hard not to be a bigot. It’s hard to tell who is who from the sidelines.
Ok, that’s true and fair. Glad to meet someone reasonable 😁
If you see a beaten up homeless person in the street and they keep screaming something about “I’m gonna take over the united States government”, the threat is basically idle and has to be taken in the context of what power he has, as a homeless perspn, as compared to a state like the US. Israel has all the power and is in no kind of substantial danger from Hamas or anyone else. It can erradiacte the entire place easily. Palestine is the homeless person screaming how he wants to replace biden while in fact he is beaten to the ground and survives on scrapes of food.
Hamas has fired more than 12,000 rockets at Israel since October 7th and continues to fire hundreds more every day. The only reason they haven’t killed more people is because Israel has invested in the Iron Dome air defense system.
You’re also forgetting that on October 7th they raped and slaughtered and burned their way through every Jew they could get their hands on, men, women and children, killing more than 1,300 in the process. The only reason they didn’t carry on their slaughter was because the ‘evil’ IDF stopped them.
The ability to defend is part of the power we are speaking of though. That’s like saying Israel doesn’t have power because if it didn’t have power it wouldn’t have power. The point stands that because of this ability of defense and superior security, Hamas doesn’t do much damage. The same cannot be said of the other side. We are not arguing about Hamas being evil or not, we are arguing about how much damage can they make given the power of Israel. The threat is not existential bu any means.
Hamas doesn’t do much damage.
Tell that to the 1,300 dead Jews, tortured, gunned down, burned alive, gang-raped, in the worst act of Jew-slaughter since the Holocaust.
If you’re reducing this down to sheer numbers, you don’t understand this conflict.
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Oh great, so now we’ve got a Holocaust denier here. Great. What a great place Lemmy is for Jews.
You’re blocked. I don’t talk to Holocaust deniers.
I’ll be sure not to concern myself with the rockets Hamas continues to fire at Israeli neighborhoods because those people shouldn’t be concerned given the power imbalance is so stark. I’m confident they’ll understand.
I don’t disagree with you that Israel has far more power and ability to influence things than anyone in Palestine does, but it’s disingenuous to portray Hamas as a harmless homeless person ranting about the government when they are often causing injury and sometimes death to people who certainly weren’t within earshot to hear the ranting in the first place.
I don’t have an answer for this situation, but Israel has an obligation to protect their citizens. That shouldn’t come at the expense of innocent Palestinian civilians, though. Everything about this conflict sucks, because there’s absolutely no good actors involved.
I never said Hamas is harmless. I merely said that the extent of their harm is so limited. It took a security nightmare for Hamas to actually do any harm, and this was taken as such a huge unexpected tragedy. Don’t get me wrong, it is a tragedy but no one is surprised that Israel can push a few bottons and kill thousands of Palestinians so easily. Israel can do in a single day what Hamas would plan for months, or even years. All of this and Israel is good at weaponizing these idle threats of “exterminating Israel”. The rockets that Hamas launches barely scratch few people here and there, but it’s always so unexpected that you hear about 1 Isreaeli that died while 200 Palestinians is just a routine occurrence. It’s a tragedy on both sides as you say, but it is not on the same level.
The rockets that Hamas launches barely harm anyone because Israel has invested a ludicrous amount of public funds into anti-rocket defenses. If those defenses were to go down, you’d see the death tolls skyrocket.
You have no idea of the extent of Hamas. There were equally stupid comments about the PLO in the 70s while they hijacked planes. The common thread here is that middle eastern countries fund and engage in terrorism while also promoting the same terrorist leadership and orgs as legitimate political representatives.
Here is a thought. Set a 60 second timer, see how fast you can reach a shelter within that timer. Now imagine that at the end of the timer rockets may or may not strike your home or your family’s home. Are okay with that? Remember that 60 second timer can go off at any moment, including your commute to work.
That’s what you’re calling an “idle threat” that Israelis are presented with constantly.
Read the comment that I’m replying to. The idea that there’s a threat to the state of Israel in its entirety is a fantasy. It’s basically used to have Israel do anything with immunity. Israel can eradicate the region if it wants to, Hamas does few harms here and there. Israel kills thousands and thousands and Hamas takes years to do any damage and it gets talked about forever. You talk about 60 second timers and shelters, Palestinians have no timers and no shelters just people and children dying left and right. There’s certainty antisemitism on that side but there are also some anti Arabic sentiments. Haven’t you seen the Israelis that shout “the only good Arab is a dead Arab” and how they are gonna murder every single Arab they can find? There are videos of this way before any Hamas attacks.
This comment is so oblivious to the actual situation and is so full of lies that’s its not worth addressing. Clearly you value some lives more than others and enforce that belief with lies.
Which bit was a lie?
The bits that contradict their pro-genocide gaslighting, I bet.
Nearly thought you were intelligently giving a point of view of the Palestinian civilians currently under fire from their fascist neighbors.
That was a close one huh
Why, did someone in Gaza do something to Israel?
Remember that 60 second timer can go off at any moment, including your commute to work.
That’s more warning than Americans get when some rando decides to shoot up a shopping mall…or a school…or a sports stadium…or the highway on the commute to work. As if no one else in the world is subject to that kind of threat…
There is no government on earth the US would allow to exist if it regularly sent terrorists into schools, sports stadiums, or highways on the commute to work.
So yes, great analogy.
Lol.
It’s not difficult at all. One is criticising government policies and extremists while the other is just bigotry using criticism of an entire people for their government policies and extremists.
So how do you tell a critic’s motivations? How do you separate the two when they are chanting in the streets?
No! This is lemmy! Only one thing can be true at once. The entire world is zero sum, those are the rules, no take-backs.
Big shout out to all the Jews protesting against israel they completely destroyed this narrative.
Are others going to label them as “anti-semitic Jews”? I feel like it would be ironic and ridiculous but I’m not that smart.
Wouldn’t be the first time “self-hating Jew” has been used to shut down any kind of anti-Zionist critique. Bernie Sanders had his face shoved in that turd all through 2016. I remember hearing it tossed around since at least the Bush Era, when being against the Iraq War was framed as a form of anti-Semitism.
I’ve already seen it. I think the common term is “self-hating Jew”.
“anti-Semitism” used to be a term with a lot of weight and serious connotations. Now, it’s been misused and abused so often that the power it once had is gone.
If anyone who disagrees with the genocidal far right government of Israel is an anti-semite then, of course, the term will lose it’s power to shame actual bigots. It should surprise nobody that actual anti-jewish bigots are coming out of the shadows.
I never understood why anti-Semitic was applied to Jews but not Arabs. Does anyone know why that is the case?
Given the end is an intended death can we turn the term “Suicide” into the term?
I was misquoted by an industry rag as one many years ago. I’m a huge fuckin Jew. People look for the negative
I’ve been labeled an anti-semetic Jew for speaking against Israel’s government.
I heard them being called “self hating jews” or “traitors” think Dixie chick’s during Iraq or MLK in the boondocks.
This is one of those memes where you can’t really be sure who it’s talking to.
Agreed. One one hand, some people have been using ‘antisemitic’ (sorry I have no idea how to spell that, and autocorrect isn’t helping lmao) to dismiss just about anyone who criticizes Israel’s actions. On the other hand, there absolutely are people going around being blatantly antisemitic.
I’m assuming that’s what you’re talking about, but correct me if I’m wrong ofc lol.
Condemning the deaths of Palestinians is not inherently antisemitic
FTFY
Anti-zionism =/= anti-semitism.
Pro-Palestine =/= pro-Hamas.
Anti-Hamas =/= Pro-Israel.
Since October it’s been a really easy concept to grasp. Hamas is a terrorist group that murdered and kidnapped a bunch (don’t know the exact number something around 200+) of Israeli civilians, the IDF responded in a predictably overzealous way and have now killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 civilians in Palestine. Neither Hamas nor the IDF have a moral high ground here. They both need to stop killing civilians. Super easy.
Neither Hamas nor the IDF have a moral high ground here. They both need to stop killing civilians.
The one thing both have in common is refusal to take peace talks seriously. Hamas refuses to let go of their hostages, and Israel continues their bombing campaign against Hamas.
Its a difficult situation because these are the “adults” in the room. The civilians involved have little power at all.
Hamas did let some hostages go fwiw.
Both Hamas and the Israeli government do not want peace, though. They’re on the same side in that. (Hence Israel sending cash and stuff to keep Hamas in power.)
Israel sending cash…to keep Hamas in power
Oh no…
That’s… bad.
Vetted one of the Times’ claims too: the Israeli press decrying the Qatari payments in 2014.
It’s pretty fucking bad.
The Israeli government directly aided the terrorist attack that killed over 1000 people. They’re not protecting their citizens. Leveling Gaza doesn’t protect shit. They’re not changing their policies. They are a disaster both for the Israeli and Palestinian people.
Meanwhile Israel has bombed known locations of hostages AND shot a few of them.
Hell, if anything, hamas is more interested in releasing the hostages than Israel is. They’ve let a few go, meanwhile the idf says “never forget” while turning Gaza into a crater. They don’t give a flying fuck about the hostages.
Hell, if anything, hamas is more interested in releasing the hostages than Israel is.
What the fuck? Hamas fucking took those hostages to begin with and started this mess.
There’s a comprehensive peace plan proposed by Egypt and Qatar. When Hamas steps up to the table and accepts the peace deal, then maybe you’d have grounds to stand on. But for now, Hamas refuses to give up the hostages, and continues to fight.
They took hostages for a reason, ostensibly to exchange them for something. Hamas doesn’t want peace though, so why would they care about a peace plan? Also, as mentioned before, they have released a few already.
They took hostages for a reason, ostensibly to exchange them for something.
Yeah. Human shields. And they’re still using them as human shields. Its like terrorist tactics 101 here.
Israel tried peace talks for over 60 years. When one side’s non-negotiable is “you all have a to die” it’s hard to secure lasting peace.
People don’t seem to understand that the Genocide / Nazi argument plays against Hamas, lol.
But yeah, it’s a tough situation. I’d argue that Bibi’s government was pretty shit at pursuing peace though.
But that’s outside the scope of the conflict today. Almost everything has to do with Oct 7th. The good news is that Egypt and Qatar want a peace to work, and as Muslim countries they’re going to be Muslim-favored / more likely to have a lasting effect in the region (rather than say, a US brokered peace deal).
So a path to peace … Or at least a ceasefire in this current flareup in hostilities… still exists. There is reason for hope.
But yeah, it’s a tough situation. I’d argue that Bibi’s government was pretty shit at pursuing peace though.
Totally. He’s massively implicated in propping up Hamas and undermining support for the non-militant Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. This is well-known in Israel at this point, and one reason for the coming reckoning he’s going to face at the ballot box.
This is not accepted fact anywhere but conspiracy land, there are articles saying that Israel have been far too soft on Hamas by letting aid through, limiting the effectiveness of bombing missions to limit civilian casualties, and ending prior conflicts before totally destroying them. These are all things which the international community loudly calls for, you can’t be pro Palestine and say that Israel is responsible for Hamas because they have ceasefires and allow aid deliveries - you’re using hardline arguments to call for a soft line, it doesn’t make sense
Your number is dangerously misleading.
According to Hamas, 20,000 Palestinians have been killed. As a matter of methodology, they do not distinguish between Hamas terrorists and civilians. It also does not distinguish between those killed by Israel and those killed by Hamas/Palestinian Islamic Jihad, whether through guns or misfired rockets. The IDF claims to have killed at minimum 8,000 Hamas terrorists, which would immediately bring the total of civilian dead down to 12,000.
The Hamas-run Health Ministry in Gaza regularly issues statistics on the dead and wounded in the Strip. As of Sunday, the tally stands at 20,424 deaths. The ministry does not differentiate between armed men and civilians, nor does it denote the people killed by Israeli strikes and those felled by errant rockets fired by Hamas and other Palestinian factions.
This time the Israeli reprisal has been far greater. “The fundamental difference in this war is that almost zero organizations in Gaza are reporting on the number of casualties, save for the Palestinian Health Ministry, which is controlled by Hamas – and the Health Ministry is working with the Media Ministry,” Khoury says.
According to the Israeli military, 10 to 12 percent of the 10,000-plus rockets fired at Israel have actually landed in Gaza. According to Prof. Kobi Michael, a senior researcher at Israel’s Institute of National Security Studies and the Misgav Institute for National Security and Zionist Strategy, “I would say that there is a significant number of casualties … caused by failed rockets from Hamas and Islamic Jihad.”
**Michael, as well as others relying on the Israeli military numbers, put the number of Hamas members killed at over 8,000. If Hamas’ total numbers are used, this would put the civilian toll at about 60 percent. When asked how it has determined the number of Hamas militants among the dead, the IDF Spokesperson’s Unit declined to comment. **
If that’s even close to the correct percentage, then it’s actually a remarkable achievement by the Israeli military to keep the proportion of civilian deaths so low.
According to the United Nations on 25 May 2022, on average 90% of deaths in war are civilians. If the Israeli military has managed to keep it down to 60%, as the analysts above suggest, then actually they’re doing a very good job.
Judaism =/= the Israeli government
I’d make this into a T-shirt but the amount of people that have no idea what ≠ means is too damn high.
Genuine question, would it be appropriate to say that the respective religions at play are not actually the core of the conflict? It seems like the only religious motivation would be concerning Jerusalem and not the entirety of the contested land.
On broad analysis, it seems similar to how the conflict between Irish Catholics and Protestants isn’t really religious, more just shorthand for idealogical differences between the two groups. Is that an apt comparison, or does religion play a more active role in this conflict?
No. I think it’s about Palestinians being imprisoned and dispossessed and robbed of their rights on their own land
The religious aspect is used to make it seem more complicated than it is. There is some, but the more I learn about it, the more the central issues reveal themselves to be about land and resources than anything else.
Israel is a secular democracy with a minority political wing motivated by religious beliefs, so it’s fair to say Jewish belief is not at the core of the conflict for them. Muslim states such as Egypt, Jordan, and UAE have established peaceful relations with Israel, so it’s fair to say that Israel is willing to make peace with Muslim nations and Muslim nations are not motivated to religiously attack Israel.
No, NI is not a great analogy. There are some superficial similarities, but the differences are significant enough such that analogies can only be made at the risk of potentially misunderstanding one or both of the conflicts.
That’s great until you encounter all the people condemning Israel, then committing hate crimes against the local Jews. The people that are pro Palestinians and cheer on Hamas. There are also plenty of people that condemn Hamas and support Israel in the same breath.
None of those people are the vocal minority. They’re the majority of supporters of these causes.
No they’re not. Most of the west was supporting Israel in defending against Hamas up until they started committing war crimes and committing Genocide. It’s no more complex than that
Zionism = the belief that the Jewish people have the right of self-determination in the form of the state of Israel in which their national aspirations
Anti-zionism = the belief that the Jewish people, uniquely among all the peoples of the world, have no right of self-determination or a state in which their national aspirations can be pursued.
Can you see why that’s antisemitic?
Israel is, besides all that, already established. Zionism was completed. It’s not going anywhere.
Anti-zionism = the belief that the Jewish people, uniquely among all the peoples of the world, have no right of self-determination or a state in which their national aspirations can be pursued.
How is that “unique?” I don’t think white nationalists or Christian nationalists have a right to their own state either. I don’t think Israel has the right to be the apartheid state it currently is.
Anti-zionism = the belief that the Jewish people, uniquely among all the peoples of the world, have no right of self-determination or a state in which their national aspirations can be pursued.
I don’t believe in rights at all. I believe the existence of nation states is an abhorration. but neither of those are why you are wrong.
antizionism is the belief that the Jewish people are part of a diaspora, and the creation of an Israeli state undermines that culture in addition to necessitating mass killing that is indistinguishable from genocide. antizionism simply opposes zionism, and makes no claims about denying rights to anyone.
I believe the existence of nation states is an abhorration.
But it’s only when the Jews claim the same right as every other people that you have a problem.
Think about that for a minute.
antizionism is the belief that the Jewish people are part of a diaspora, and the creation of an Israeli state undermines that culture in addition to necessitating mass killing that is indistinguishable from genocide. antizionism simply opposes zionism, and makes no claims about denying rights to anyone.
This isn’t what Anti-Zionism is. It might be what you mean by it, but it isn’t Anti-Zionism. Partly because Zionism – and the establishment of an Israeli state – does not, and never has, necessitated mass killing.
It does in fact make claims about rights – it specifically selects out Jews as the only people who are not entitled to self-determination and the aspiration to nationhood in a state of their own and in their homeland to which they are indigenous.
It does in fact make claims about rights – it specifically selects out Jews as the only people who are not entitled to self-determination
is that what you tell the antizionist Jews?
A tiny, tiny proportion of Jews who take that view for specific theological reasons. You don’t get to weaponise them in your fight against the Jewish state by acting like they’re representative.
You don’t get to weaponise them in your fight … by acting like they’re representative.
holy fuck imagine writing all these words in this order and not realising what you’re doing.
is that what you say to jewish anarchists?
the establishment of an Israeli state – does not, and never has, necessitated mass killing.
so they’re just doing it for funsies.
it’s only when the Jews claim the same right as every other people that you have a problem.
wrong
Show me where all the white people are displacing and killing others so they can create their perfect ethno-state. Show me where black people are doing that too. While we are at it, let’s throw in every other ethnicity on the planet and see where their rightful ethnostates are.
The problem is that the term ‘Zionism’ has had scope creep.
Now it also includes a political movement in Israel that endorses the idea of Israel’s expansion and sees the Palestinian neighbors as occupying land to be.
So when many people say that they are “anti-Zionist” they aren’t necessarily saying that they don’t think Israel has a right to exist at all, but that they don’t think it has a right to have expanded and to effectively annex its neighbors (a 2023 theme that’s not very favorable to Israel with whom it shares the association). Or additionally that it doesn’t have a right to exist by committing war crimes and human rights violations to make that happen (another association with the same).
Some are saying that it doesn’t have a right to exist at all. And I agree in that instance it is pretty anti-Semetic. But Zionist expansion attitudes are also technically anti-Semetic given that both Israelis and Palestinians are Semetic populations, and both can trace their ancestry to the same exact ancestral indigenous Canaanite populations.
The problem is that telling which attitude of “anti-Zionism” is which just from the term “anti-Zionist” has become impossible because the term Zionism itself now means a spectrum of things.
Well then the ball is in the court of the anti-zionists to better educate themselves and understand the words they’re using and ideologies they claim to be espousing.
Let’s stick with the definition of Zionism that almost all Jews across the world and in Israel would actually recognise, which is the one I already gave above. And the reality is that almost any Jew interprets “Anti-Zionism” to be “Israel should be destroyed”, which is unsurprising when recent opinion polling shows that among 18-24 year old Americans want “Israel to be ended and given to Hamas”.
A big part of the problem is that many, many Palestinians still refuse to accept that Israel is a state which exists, has the right to exist, and is going nowhere. It’s part of a very cruel cycle of delusion that their Arab neighbours subject them to. Ezra Klein at the New York Times talks about this at about 7 minutes into this podcast episode – there’s this cruel idea perpetuated across Palestinian “refugees” (who are not refugees by any standard definition) that they will one day ‘go home’. They won’t, and the consequence for those Palestinian ‘refugees’ of not grasping this has been devastating for them.
Some are saying that it doesn’t have a right to exist at all. And I agree in that instance it is pretty anti-Semetic. But Zionist expansion attitudes are also technically anti-Semetic given that both Israelis and Palestinians are Semetic populations, and both can trace their ancestry to the same exact ancestral indigenous Canaanite populations.
Antisemitism isn’t about hatred of Semites, it’s specifically hatred of Jews. It’s impossible to be antisemitic to non-Jews. While it’s common and understandable, most Jews would also ask that you don’t hyphenate antisemitism precisely because it leads people to make that above mistake.
https://evolve.reconstructingjudaism.org/antisemitism-hyphen/
However, without intending it, by hyphenating the term “antisemitism,” one implicitly reproduces antisemitic stereotypes. Every time journalists or a social-media users writes “anti-Semitism” (with a hyphen), they signify that there is something called “semitism” or even, “Semitism” with a capital “s.” This way, one justifies a form of pseudo-scientific racial classification, which is the core of antisemitism. To understand this, we have to go back two centuries to the origins of the term.
Jewish Telegraph Agency: The New York Times updates style guide to ‘antisemitism,’ losing the hyphen
That said, I of course acknowledge there are ideological extremists in Israel too. Palestinians and Jews are both indigenous to the land – this is the whole problem. It would have been an easy issue to settle long ago if that wasn’t the case. Jonathan Freedland has written very movingly on this in The Guardian, and Haaretz have reported on DNA testing verifying the common ancestry of Jews and Palestinians. It’s likely that many Palestinains (not all, but many) are the descendents of Jews who later converted to Christianity and, later still, to Islam.
And the reality is that almost any Jew interprets “Anti-Zionism” to be “Israel should be destroyed”, which is unsurprising when recent opinion polling shows that among 18-24 year old Americans want “Israel to be ended and given to Hamas”.
It’s pretty weird phrasing for a poll where “58 percent said Hamas should be removed from running Gaza, and a plurality, 45 percent, said Israel should be the one to run Gaza if Hamas is removed.”
And if we’re talking about polls, less than 30% of Jewish Israelis support a two state solution, so the idea of polls dictating foreign policy might not be the best idea in general for either Israel or Palestine.
Antisemitism isn’t about hatred of Semites, it’s specifically hatred of Jews. It’s impossible to be antisemitic to non-Jews. While it’s common and understandable, most Jews would also ask that you don’t hyphenate antisemitism precisely because it leads people to make that above mistake.
The term has come to be exclusively applied, but at a technical level the word’s construction relates to a broader set of people who are closely related to the population it is exclusively applied to. Ironically the desire to avoid hyphenation is to distance Jewish identity from the notion of the ethnic associations of Semites, which really just goes to how inappropriate the term is in general. Prejudice against a Japanese person who converted to Judaism for their religion probably shouldn’t be labeled with a term relating to an ethnic origin, but prejudice against an ethnically Jewish atheist is quite appropriately labeled as such. The problem is we’re lumping two very different prejudices together (against religion vs against ethnicity).
Also, as someone who is ethnically Jewish, you might want to check your “almost any Jew interprets” or “most Jews would ask” - it’s a bit gross to be Jew-splained to, especially when you certainly don’t speak for me or most of my family.
The term has come to be exclusively applied, but at a technical level the word’s construction relates to a broader set of people who are closely related to the population it is exclusively applied to.
This isn’t true. It surprises me that you understand antisemitism so poorly given your own exposure to the risk of it.
https://www.adl.org/spelling-antisemitism-vs-anti-semitism
The word “Semitic” was first used by a German historian in 1781 to bind together languages of Middle Eastern origin that have some linguistic similarities. The speakers of those languages, however, do not otherwise have shared heritage or history. There is no such thing as a Semitic peoplehood. Additionally, one could speak a Semitic language and still have anti-Semitic views.
And in 1879, German journalist Wilhelm Marr coined “Antisemitismus” to mean hatred of the Jewish “race,” adding racial and pseudo-scientific overtones to the animus behind the word. But hatred toward Jews, both today and in the past, goes beyond any false perception of a Jewish race; it is wrapped up in complicated historical, political, religious, and social dynamics.
Many of the peoples who speak Semetic languages are in fact closely related, even if not all of the peoples are by basis of speaking the languages.
And yes, I agree with the second paragraph that the term is a poor one (for reasons I further laid out in my comment) and should be retired for two different terms regarding bias against Judaism and bias against ethnic Jews.
Either every race has a right to their own ethno-state or none of them do. Reasonable people assert the latter.
some of the most chill, accepting, and compassionate religious people I know are jews. Funny how what those people all have in common is hating zionism.
Sadly they’re not the ones running Israel right now :(
Jews who stand against zionism don’t usually have a lot of motivation to live in Israel. It’s a structural issue with the country.
There are some! At least some who stand against these atrocities. It’s definitely less attractive a prospect, though.
“Those that shoot missles and kill civilians are responsible for their death regardless of circumstances.”
“If you think I am criticizing Israel instead of Hamas then you are admitting you can’t tell the difference - and that’s a ‘you’ problem”
The classic Israeli response is the same line used in Iraq and Afghanistan to justify civilian deaths. Terrorists are hiding behind human shields, so its their fault if civilians die.
Combine this with the modern military rhetoric of “smart bombs” and “precision strikes”, the chronic effort by military bean counters to reclassify collateral murder victims as “enemy combatants”, and the intentionally gullible media establishment more invested in getting interviews with high profile bureaucrats than establishing an objective view of world events, and you end up with news articles that posit all state military claims as true-until-proven-otherwise.
Even the framing of the conflict, calling it the Israel-Hamas War rather than the Israel-Palestine War, is intended to deflect any criticism of the genocidal intent of the invading Israeli army onto the Palestinians they are slaughtering.
Antisemitism can be defined arbitrarily by Zionists. Criticizing Zionism is often labeled as antisemitic. You cannot win by playing this game.
The easiest is to ignore this label and look at the facts. If I am an antisemite for not wanting psychopaths to kill Palestinian children, and want said psychopaths to be justly charged for their crimes, then so be it, I am an antisemite. I don’t care.
I think it crosses into antisemitism when any/all Jewish people are targeted. Like the people shouting “death to all Jews” have certainly crossed that line.
I have seen far more “death to America” on here than “death to Jews”, in fact I haven’t even seen a “death to Jews” on lemmy yet.
We generally overrate labels. Labels can always change their meaning depending on who you ask, and this meaning is manipulated to gain political points.
Majority of people here do not oppose Jews based on nationality and only stand against Israeli army and government committing war crimes and inflicting massacre on Palestinian civilians. Good luck twisting that.
I say fuck Israel, not fuck the Jews. Not sure who’s the target audience here
Yeah, fuck isntreal
Well that’s a relief, I thought I was missing out this whole time
And if it’s all too complicated, you’re always free to STFU.
This was me for most of the time since this started lmao. I read a lot of news about it, but had pretty much no idea what was going on (still don’t 100% ofc). No shame in STFU-ing :)
We’ve lost the art of stfu if you have nothing to offer, and apologizing or admitting you’re incorrect or your opinion isn’t defensible. Marc Maron does a bit in his most recent Netflix special. We used to say “oh man, I’m so stupid, how’d I miss that, you’re right, sorry” … there’s no regular old stupidity anymore
Those PARTICULAR Jews suck!
Authoritarians don’t want you to know this, but:
The people are not the state.
The state is not the people.
Nobody is born anywhere on purpose.
You can condemn the Israeli state without being a Nazi.
The problem is that “Jew” can refer to the ethnicity, the religion, or the state. The same word for 3 different groups. One of them should be denounced but people are too stupid to realize the other 2 groups aren’t necessarily the same people.
Another problem is that Israel is an ethnostate, which is rare in the world today. Yes, you can be an Arab Israeli technically. It’s not a perfect example.
The problem is that creating a state as a “Jewish homeland” is inherently exclusionary to non-Jews. It’s a really backwards idea since the concept of adoptive nationality arose in the late 1700s.
France has a strong culture but is not exclusionary to it’s neighbors (Germany, Spain, etc.). Many border regions share culture with those countries. A person from the south of France has more in common with northern Italy or Spain than someone from northern France.
Do the parts of Israel that neighbor the West Bank and Gaza have similar interchange of culture and ideas? No.
Some people can, others… well… i think the antisemitic comments are the point for some.
Did anyone else never notice Double D is pointing at a page that’s double the width of the book and has been folded out?
That’s the joke™️
My god can beat up your god, nuh uh, bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
If someone wants to tie their religious identity to a fallible government, that’s their brain damage.
