His father should have pulled out.
It would backfire like Brexit. Imagine the USA openly shunted by all former allies about their war crimes and other international crimes. The US forgets they currently can get away with a lot, and they do, because they are also an important ally. If you remove their NATO support, what reason is left to whistle ignorance?
The US forgets they currently can get away with a lot, and they do, because they are also an important ally
I think it’s only Trump who forgets this not the US. I am not even sure he understands it really
It’s not only Trump.
It’s also Trump voters and voters who stay at home and let him back into office.
I’ll be pleasantly surprised if a majority of American voters turn out against him.
Last time it was about 1 in 3 voted for him, 1 in 3 voted against him, and 1 in 3 didn’t show up.
The US getting held accountable for it’s war crimes? Sounds too good to be true.
Yeah, can y’all vote Trump meow?
/S kinda
Brexit was a disaster because the UK economy was third-place-and-shrinking in the economic block. They had no leverage.
NATOXIT would be a much bigger deal, because the US is the premier global military power and the single largest exporter of weapons and associated tech.
Also, the NATO thing is pure bluster in order to assert leverage over the bloc, while Brexit was a dog-catching-the-car scenario. The Tories invented so many fictions about how awful EU membership was that they couldn’t accept what generous concessions were offered. Meanwhile, Trump will happily take a big personal kickback for a small concession on arms sales.
Backfiring to Boris looks a lot different than backfiring to Trump. Boris Johnson, even though he’s a piece of shit, still cares about England. Trump only cares about himself and would let Putin waltz right into the War Room if he wanted to.
I’m not in favor of leaving NATO immediately, but to say that Europe would have much leverage is disingenuous. The US enjoys many strategic advantages over Europe besides NATO membership they have:
Large wealthy consumer base with healthy demographics, worlds most advanced military, fastest growing net exporter of energy, worlds largest blue ocean navy that has kept sea lanes open for trade, etc. etc.
Europe is incapable of projecting power beyond EU boarders without US logistical support. They lack the necessary logistical support to do it at scale. They also can’t perform SEAD operations and don’t have the satellite and intelligence gathering assets that the US has.
In short they can take action against the US at their own peril.
Don’t know what consumer base you’re referring to, but other than the wealthy keeping the economy afloat by maintaining their expenditures on creature comforts, most people in America are broke as fuck.
It’s not about Europe. It’s about the massive fuckton of TS//SCI shit shared directly with FIVE EYES and NATO, which shows the exact locations of US strategic nuclear weapons, strategic weapons protocols, intelligence gathering techniques and sources, etc that can almost immediately be sent directly to Russia and China as soon as the US walks out the door. It’s about the first line of defense missile detection radars, the cryptologic keys, Global Campaign Plans, Contingency Plans, PBNZ coordinates, non-overflight coordinates, FLAGWORDS, etc.
And that’s not all - you also lost all international trade, everywhere, forever. Bye-bye middle eastern oil and Chinese manufactured goods, because all your oh-so-friendly shipping lanes and freedom of the seas is now contested waters full of could-be-privateers. If the EU, by pure necessity, pivots Eastward into a pan-Eurasian bloc, that’s game for the US.
Breaking away would be painful but there is nothing you’ve stated on the Op Sec side that can’t be changed or moved. Early warning radars are forward positioned for the safety of our allies. Shuttering them would hurt them more than us.
Cheap Chinese goods are a thing of the past. The CCP under Xi is openly hostile to the West. Due to the one child policy their demographics are even more terminal than Europes or Russia’s. The US is in the middle of the largest industrial build out in modern history because of this.
We don’t need Middle Eastern oil, the US is the fastest growing net exporter of oil and gas. If anything they compete with our energy products. Europe and Asia would be hit harder by the US pulling back from guaranteeing freedom of the seas for the global order. If US ships were not on station off the coast of Yemen you would see a larger disruption of trade. Europe has contributed very little to this operation which they are arguably more dependent on.
The US also has the best demographics of the Western world, we are the largest driver of international trade. Europe needs our healthy growing market and workforce more than we need theirs which are in terminal decline.
Look man, if nothing else, we’re subsidizing your insane deficit spending and keeping you from hyperinflation by keeping USD as currency reserves. The EU and the US are comparable sized economies, and I could also say the EU is held back a lot by the still present divisions across its members. An external rallying event would most likely catapult integration and economic and military strength.
All that said, there is no reasonable way forward for the US or the EU without keeping the current world order, which means keeping a strong alliance. If the US and the EU decide on a trade war, that would most likely mean insane inflation and economic breakdown, and a Chinese new world order.
So let’s stop comparing dick sizes, get all our fucking fascists back in their holes, and let’s try making a friendly alliance work?
So, you cool if Canada nopes out of NORAD too then? Gonna use smoke signals for your DEW?
Canada can’t defend their own airspace without US assistance. They have 78 VERY old and tired CF-18s that date back to 1982 to patrol an airspace larger than the US.
They can nope out of whatever they want and get taken over by Russia and China. (Shit even India doesn’t respect their sovereignty and runs Special Ops on their soil.) However I very much doubt the US will let that happen.
The United States has maintained longstanding support to NATO. Most recently, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2024, enacted on December 22, 2023, prohibits the President from unilaterally withdrawing from NATO without approval of a two-third Senate super-majority or an act of Congress.[71] This bill was a response to Donald Trump’s repeated expressions of interest in withdrawing from the organization.[72][73]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_NATO#United_States
That link also claims the Greens want out of NATO, so I guess they see eye-to-eye with Trump on that one? Honestly, it makes me less likely to support the Greens now that I know that.
The Green Party in the US is just an extension of the Kremlin aimed at peeling votes away from Democrats in key races.
Don’t worry it’s the same in Europe
What are you talking about? Every “green” party I know in Europe is very much against the war in Ukraine and holds Russia responsible. They are about as anti Russia as it gets. Green parties are also very much pro Europe, they want a stronger Europe with more members and cooperation in the EU. Green parties are either center-left or totally left leaning. Green parties usually get a big chunk of votes, not only marginal like in the US.
Russia is heavily funding and supporting the right and far right parties, who are almost all against a unified Europe. Russia is doing their best to break up the EU with campaigns of misinformation, bots, advertising and direct/indirect funding of right wing political parties.
And Russia is succeeding as well with the far right on the rise all over Europe. They already got Brexit through against all odds and are now working on breaking up the rest. In Germany the rise of the right is still fresh, so there is a lot of resistance. But other countries are much less resistant.
Russia is heavily funding and supporting the right and far right parties
Welcome to the new warfare that caught the west totally off-guard. The “poorly educated” were the first casualties and have been recycled into the Russian forces.
I’m genuinely curious if there is no way to stop all/most of these influence & astroturf ops, will we just see a walled off internet with hefty firewalls or content moderation at national ‘borders’? It’d be a huge upheaval to the internet, but otherwise we’re stuck trying for a 100% defense against state cyber attacks
My personal take here is that playing defense is a losing game and that we really need to kick off another 1968 movement. A counter culture that is infecting and firmly against Russia and conservatives.
Thanks for the info. I admit my experience was based on the Italian greens who are irrelevant and generally left leaning, which in Italy means Russophile like anything left of the dems, and on what I know of the German greens, which is that they lobbied for getting rid of clean energy and ramping up the use of coal / gas / petrol, all Russian imports.
I don’t know about other European countries, but Germany’s greens have kept a relatively tidy ship compared to other parties.
Which is why Russia is puppeteering Germany’s far-right to view them as a kind of combined enemy, you often hear them use the term “Linksgrunversifft” / “left-green-soiled” towards people who hold the wrong opinions.
Didn’t they push a similar joined term in America 2016? I remember encountering the words “liberal elite” a lot, probably an attempt to redirect the resentment against the uppity conservative establishment towards liberals instead. I guess it worked.
No it’s not, not at all.
The US Greens are largely subsidized by Republican funders, and Green presidential candidates have been dinner guests of Putin. The US Greens aren’t an independent environmentalist party but are a GOP stalking horse.
Oh boy, they think Ukraine should also negotiate with Putin under a cease fire: https://www.gp.org/proposal_1155_gpus_calls_for_ceasefire_to_end_ukraine_war
But apparently they advocate pacifist ideas. No real foundation in reality.
Pretty hard for me to see a difference between a pacifist and a tankie
Is this irony? oO
The Greens haven’t been the greens since Nader.
Does that apply just for 2024?
Good question and I do not know. And my searching isn’t coming up with a good answer either.
I believe it’s forever, unless found unconstitutional or congress changes and passes a replacement.
The 2024 part of the Bill name is just so you know which fiscal bill it is.
Edited for typo.
Which greens? The Scottish greens?
Yes. The Scottish Greens. That’s definitely for sure who I was talking about.
Lots of greens around in different countries.
And which country do you think I might have been talking about?
Didn’t know. That’s why I asked.
Well… there’s two possible ways you could have found out for yourself-
- You could have just clicked the link and saw which Green Party I was talking about.
- You could have read your own headline and figured it out.
I read the link and there are references to greens in several countries. And I suppose I could have assumed you were talking about the US, but I’ve never heard of a Green Party in the US.
Now I’m sorry I asked. Holy crap.
We know. Get out and vote!!!
But remember, vote for Biden and not for Trump. If you play nice and behave, a group of unknown people that you didn’t vote for might actually vote for Biden so he can stay president for another 4 years. If you voted for Trump, I guess that group of electoral college people might care enough to still vote for Biden? But who cares anyway. Neither Biden nor Trump actually do anything. They just tell the rest of us to do as they say…I’m being sarcastic, vote Biden! Please! Electoral college dudes… because we know you’re all dudes … Please could you just vote for Biden this time?
… perhaps it was a mistake to legalize weed after all.
this is an appeal to ridicule, and ableist besides
One issue at a time. First, face the existential problem, then address the systemic problem.
i voted for him in 2008. that was enough for me.
But remember folks! There’s a lot of (disillusioned) people here that would like everyone to know that Trump and Biden are exactly the same!
No. Just no. We pressure Biden because we want him to be better. We believe he can be. Trump is a lost cause who should be in prison for attempting a coup.
No, you do it because you’re a weaksauce milquetoast coward who goes after the weaker party in a confrontation because you care more about avoiding conflict than you do about what’s right.
And you’re alienating all of the pro-Palestine people who want a third party, and literally anyone else who wants literally anyone else in office other than those two cretins.
It won’t kill you to support something different instead of being a cowardly little weasel for once in your life, I promise you.
three paragraphs and yet you didn’t say anything lol
Bruh you okay?
Are you listening at all or are you just looking for a cheap gotcha moment?
Instead of advocating for a third party that can possibly offer us something better, all they have to offer is more of the same or a concentration camp, and neither choice is acceptable.
Hooray! My 3rd party candidate got 9% of the vote! It shows that there is a chance for a 3rd party in the US, assuming democracy survives 4 more years under Republican/Trump executive control.
Then all of you find a third party and vote for them instead of Biden. Force the change you want to see in thr world. Until then, get out of my face.
Precisely three third party candidates have won any EC votes in the last century: George Wallace, Strom Thurmond and Robert La Follete. Follete won Wisconsin, and the other two unsurprising only won states in the deep south.
The likely “best case” scenario would be something like the 1912 election, which was essentially a three way race between former Republican president Teddy Roosevelt running third party against the incumbent Republican Taft, and the Democratic challenger, Willson.
Willson won 41.8% of the popular vote, and 81% of of EC vote. Taft got 23% of the vote, and managed to carry Vermont and Utah. Roosevelt got 27% of the vote, and carried 6 states. Eugene Debs didn’t win a single state with his 6% of the vote - and its worth noting that the last time a third party candidate did as well as Debs was Perot, back in 96.
A majority of the country voted for a current or former Republican president, yet the election was a land slide for the Democrat in the EC.
Because of the structure of the EC, third parties are either irrelevant protest votes (such as the south protest voting for segregationists) or they blow up in your face. Why would this time be different?
Edit:
One significant problem with a pro-Palestinian third party revolt against Biden is that Democratic support for Palestinians isn’t anywhere near high enough for a universal revolt against Biden on that issue. It’d just be begging for a repeat of 1912.
Netanyahu’s poll numbers are pretty rock bottom among Democrats, but a majority of older Democrats see Israel as a legitimate state with an unfortunately far right current government that’s going too far in their current war against a terrorist organization. They’re not looking for a free Palestine that stretches from the river to the sea.
Have you tried coordinating 5 people for a dinner party? Imagine trying to get 75 million people to all agree to switch to one of various third parties?
Biden got the most votes of any president in history. Trump is ranked number two. It is simply a risk we cannot take at this time. If you vote 3rd party in 2024, you are betting your rights, women’s rights, non-Christians rights, LGBTQ rights, worker’s rights, and the possiblity of ever having free and fair elections on the most hazy of fevered pipe dreams. Anyone who does this a fucking moron. You’re out here bitching about how conservative Biden is, when christofascist terrorists have a gun pressed into the back of your head. You can feel morally superior in your ghetto I guess.
absolutely no one has ever legitimately argued that. the point is that both choices suck and we get no say in it
Calling Biden “The Left” is just disingenuous. He’s a centrist liberal who ignores the withered left wing of his own party.
Welcome to missing the point, population: you.
both choices suck
What puerile nonsense.
Trump already demonstrated that he was a complete disaster and Russian asset, and I hate linking to the evil empire, but:
He really is being held to a totally different standard by the media and the cut off their nose to spite their face far left.
For those that want to break everything, this is a feature, not a bug. The magats would rather send the world into the toilet rather than not be able to “own the libs” (and women, and POC, and LGBTQ and immigrants, and anyone with one iota more education than them, etc.).
The magats would rather send the world into the toilet rather than
not be able to “own the libs”let their opponents have any success or peaceWith the text adjustments above, it’s clearly something they’ve learned from their Russian mentors.
Removed by mod
Remember all their bullshit Russian-esque narratives about how Hillary was going to start WWIII?
Removed, rule 6, 24 hour ban.
No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
Removed by mod
Nope, “retard” is not allowed to be directed at anyone.
Removed by mod
And a false report with mod abuse earns you a permaban. Enjoy!
It’s in the rules, read the sidebar. If you don’t like it, you’re free to leave.
So usa are going to leave there military bases on our land right ?
Well last time trump did a withdrawal of troops they left everything for the taliban, so it stands to reason it would happen again.
The elites don’t want you to know this but the fighter jets at overseas military bases are free you can take them home. I have 12 F-35s
Lockheed Martin hates this one simple trick!
Hey, hello Howard, next door neighbor… Oi yeah get your jumbo jet out of my airport!
Jelly, I’m going to give it a shot, I’ll let you know how it goes.
Sick delectable piece of trash.
detestable?
You heard the man. Don’t kink shame
Lmao
You know who also wasn’t in NATO? Ukraine.
Bruh, if Trump wins and we pull out of Nato, Russia won’t even have to invade us. Trump will give Putin a fist bump and a welcome basket when he arrives off the plane.
That’s when the Civil War would break out. Literal gun fights in the streets if Putin stepped foot into the US.
Sure lol
In order to do that Trump would need a MAGA-Republican majority in the US Senate as well, due to a recently bi-partisan enacted law by Congress stating as much - https://thehill.com/homenews/4360407-congress-approves-bill-barring-president-withdrawing-nato/
any Party may cease to be a Party [of NATO] one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation
“America? It’s America, we quit”
Euro confusion intensifies
— Hello America, we need to talk.
— Sure America, what’s going on?
— Not on the phone, this is very important.
— Where do you want to meet?
— Somewhere public.
Trump will do whatever is in his power to do, legal or not. As long as Putin tells him he is in the tough guy maffia club, ensuring him that he is invincible.
It requires approval of the US congress.
Don’t look now but they give him pretty much everything he wants.
They need to get past the Senate filibuster.
But the real problem is a Commander in Chief who doesn’t want to fulfill treaty obligations. Congress doesn’t have a mechanism to force that, just impeachment which we’ve seen fail already. So while we can’t officially leave, we aren’t going to be participating under him either.
Implying checks and balances will apply to “only 1 day” dictator Don.
Sure, with Kaine’s and Rubio’s bill from December, it now requires Senate approval. But all Trump really needs to do is to say that the US won’t help its allies, which is what he’s doing. And since NATO is based on deterrence, he’s effective undermining trust in NATO as an alliance. The winners are Russia and China.
So what happens if he just says not to go help NATO if article 5 is invoked (if that’s the one where a member is attacked)? Doing nothing seems more up his alley anyways, pulling out requires more work so he’ll probably just say no if it’s needed.
I got no idea if the US armed forces can deploy without the president’s approval in some way or if Trump says no go then it’s completely off. Been wondering as a NATO neighbor who’s country he called a security threat his first term.
This shouldn’t really be news to people, he literally attempted that once already.
