I like to think that I’m a better critical thinker than most, but I fell for the initial news story about her being trans or intersex and the fight being unfair. Then I saw the pictures of her over the years and as a kid, and I dug deeper into what actually happened and I honestly feel dirty. I’ve since been unsubbing to a lot YouTubers.
This is called growth. Good on you.
I have noticed that YouTube by default pushes a lot of right wing-esque stuff. My YouTube recommendations are fucked when I am not logged in, so much misinformation and clickbait all over the place. So I can see why it’s easy to fall for misinformation.
They’ve also started using a lot of channel names which are totally unrelated to politics. No huge surprise of course that it’s the right wing doing stuff like this…
Youtube’s recommendation algo is insane.
I get 2nd amendment nutcases telling me the dems are gonna steal my guns and trans women are gonna rape all my family in public toilets.
I’m British, living in Britain, but I sometimes looking up what the best gun attachments are on call of duty…
Turn off having it track your browsing history, and subscribe and search to/for stuff you like.
I do not have that experience at all. Mine is all video games and science. Its based on what you interact with, even if its negative. Engagement is engagement. Even just hovering over a video can result in it being recommended again.
They literally said it pushes those things when not logged in. So when YouTube doesn’t know your tastes it pushes things like that.
Logging in does affect it, but there’s many more factors that aren’t related to your login status.
yeah, no.
thing is: YT/google/the data kraken knows you regardless of wether or not you’re logged in.
they track everything from IP, to location (even just approximate based on IP), screen size, browser, OS, and sooo much more.
being logged in makes it easier to track you within a site, but you get tracked regardless.
Good for you. We all have biases, it’s best to be aware of it and challenge it from time to time.
Happy you did!
Also, afaik, there are guidelines for trans athletes in most major sports competitions, in terms of testosterone levels etc., to ensure fair play, so this wouldn’t matter anyway.
And also, Algeria is officially a Sunni Islam country where gender transition is outlawed.
Check out the podcast “Tested”. It’s three episodes and goes into the history of testing female athletes to make sure they are “female enough” to compete.
terms of testosterone levels etc.
So why is it if a man has elevated testosterone levels it’s allowed for him to have that advantage, but if a woman has elevated testosterone levels that’s not?
If we’re interested in fair play shouldn’t all competitors be tested and those with less testosterone be given more so that they are on an even playing field?Yes or at least organize athletes by testosterone like we do with weight if it’s truly that big of a deal. Then men with lower T shouldn’t be against men with higher T either.
if it’s truly that big of a deal.
That’s the question, is it? I believe in the podcast I mentioned they said the IOC’s (flawed) tests only showed an advantage in a few Track and Field events (I think it was mid length runs).
So let’s do some proper testing first to see how much of an advantage Testosterone actually gives, it’s entirely possible it’s irrelevant and we should stop testing for it all together.
If there is something that provides a noticeable advantage then just separating everyone by the “weight class” equivalent would be better than an arbitrary gender division.
Agreed. The book “Delusions of Gender” by Cordelia Fine points out that sexes are generally much more alike than different.
Another misconception people have is that trans women are inherently stronger than cis women, which isn’t true. I know from anecdotal evidence, that it is extremely difficult for me to open jars now that I’ve been on estrogen and t blockers for over a year. My t is actually under the normal range for cis women, and usually I have to get my cis sister to open jars because she’s stronger than me now.
Also newer studies have shown trans women don’t actually have the competitive advantage conservatives say they have.
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/olympic-trans-women-ioc-study-rcna148437
Would this be different if someone were to transition at a later age (say mid 20s - 30s)? Honest question, trying to learn something here.
I do think their muscle would still be significantly reduced by the hormones, but the older someone is the more their body is “set in place.” This means any changes will take longer to occur and they may not happen to the degree that they would have if they started younger. So someone starting mid 20s - 30s likely won’t have skeletal changes, since that part of their body has already finished growing. (Someone starting as a young teen definitely will have skeletal changes though.)
It’s crazy what an impact hormones have!
Thanks for clarifying :)
That’s what separates is from them…the ability to digest comflicting information and change our opinion.
I went through the same mental shenanigans over the last two weeks.
It’s a great case of how tempting doubt is, and how people will automatically believe that accusations wouldn’t be made if something were not happening, so we have a 55% starting bias to believe “guilty.”
In college I was once the object of a salacious rumor that was 100% fabricated by someone and spread throughout my circles in school. By the time I heard about it, friends-of-friends and the entire faculty in my department had as well. Closer friends said things like “I never bothered to ask you about it because I figured it wasn’t true. And if it was true I didn’t care. Is it true?”
It was very frustrating how ready everyone was to believe it. People not very close to me ALL believed it. To this day I bet some people I know doubt whether I have just been lying this whole time to defend myself. But I know what I did and didn’t do, and I learned that people will absolutely get up one day and decide to manufacture something out of thin air and then spend energy spreading it around as if true.
I no longer think “well something must have happened if there’s this much hubbub about it…”
Fuck every person who engaged in this shit. Lie after lie
Starting with that shitty Italian boxer who was a giant coward. She should be banned from boxing in the Olympics since this is a habit of hers. Basic decency and sportsmanship should be required.
Surrendering is part of the rules, why are you blowing on hate, exactly?
Boxing is a combat sport. While she is a fucking idiot for suggesting anything was incorrect, if there is anything she is it’s not a coward.
She is just not very good at boxing. She got beat handily by a woman, and a woman that will likely go pro and absolutely dominate for as long as she wants.
She didn’t suggest anything was incorrect. She literally said that she is nobody to judge the match and that she gave up due to pain.
and then the Hungarian she was to fight after posted a picture depicting her as a bullman/minotaur, no actions were taken against either of them. goes to show most Europeans are shitty mannerless folks
“Europeans”, a notoriously homogeneous class of people, with a sample of size of 1.
goes to show most Europeans are shitty mannerless folks
Well, that’s uncalled for… I can show you American MMA fighters saying/doing some pretty fucked up things, but it wouldn’t really be fair to make such a statement about Americans, would it?
EDIT: Just to give an example, here and here is a (at the time) UFC champ, who suffered precisely 0 consequences for any of this.
As a general rule, people who pursue fighting as a career are typically not great people.
Allez Imane!
(EDIT: Just wanted to add I have donated 10 dollars for each current downvote (7) to women’s rights charities in Algeria. Thanks for supporting Algerian women’s rights!) (EDIT 2: Fuck it, I added another 10 for the late downvote. Thanks for supporting Algerian women’s rights!)
That’s not fair, I want to downvote you now.
Too bad, you’ll have to donate in your own name. ;)
When I watched the video, I was shocked this even was a thing that happened.
I heard about the controversy for a while, heard some people say when they saw the fight they “understood why there was questioning”, and heard something about a punch. As an avid MMA fan, I expected a scary knockout, like those where you hold your breath until you see the person start moving again.
Imagine my surprise when I finally saw the video, and watched an Olympic boxing fight for the first time. I see of them wearing headgear, one of them gets hit with a few good punches, gets to pause to adjust headgear, gets hit with a few more good punches and calls off the fight without her knees ever even buckling or getting stunned, and doesn’t even have a mark on her face. Perhaps the neatest, least harmful fight I’ve ever seen.
To be clear, I don’t hold it against her for realizing she probably won’t be winning and quitting before taking unnecessary damage, I’m just shocked anyone would think Imane is trans or a man based on that fight. Imagine if those people ever saw Amanda Nunes, or Dakota Ditcheva, or Zhang Weili. But I’d guess most of those people never actual watch women compete in any sports unless there is a controversy like this one, at which point they become experts.
I’m just shocked anyone would think Imane is trans or a man based on that fight.
Fan fact: there has never been a single case of a man trying to compete in women’s sports by claiming to be a woman.
I also love MMA and shared the same sentiment. I recall seeing this gallery of Joanna Jedrzeczyk’s opponents before and after.
Your opponent doesn’t need to be a man to break your face. Sometimes you’re just outmatched.
Love Zhang Weili
If I’m understanding correctly the argument against her competing hinges upon a genetic test that the article provides no information for.
The evidence that she’s a woman seems overwhelming. But the article doesn’t provide the necessary information for an reader to understand and defeat the objection. We’re not to reason for ourselves. Instead, we’re to rely on ad hominem: The objection itself doesn’t matter because it came from Russia. The article also ignores fallacy fallacy: There’s also a very small possibility that Russia has reached the “good” conclusion for entirely “bad” reasons.
I know three things:
- She’s almost certainly a biological woman.
- She won.
- The author thinks you’re stupid.
Afaik the IOC did all the standard testing on her and didn’t find any issues (no doping, normal testosterone levels, etc). Idk if they did a genetic sex test - I’d imagine that isn’t standard. Is that correct? Regardless of the Russian-run boxing federation’s intentions, I’d still trust the IOC’s findings over theirs.
Plus, even if she was XXY or something, does that actually have any impact on athletic performance? I’d imagine not
Edi: yep. Looks like it is widely believed that having a y chromosome is unfair, but the science doesn’t necessarily back that up.
“improved understanding about genetic factors that lead to selection in sport should offer reassurance that female athletes with hyperandrogenism do not possess any physical attribute relevant to athletic performance that is neither attainable, nor present in other women.”
The fact that trans athletes aren’t all at the top of their leagues is proof that a y chromosome isn’t unfair.
The gradient caused by sexual dimorphism is smaller than the gradient caused by intense, advanced training in all but the most pure strength based competitions like powerlifting.
There is no info, because it was just Russian misinformation from a former boxing org. boss. She was disqualified after beating a Russian. There is nothing more to this story, just the “West” again show its weakness and vulnerability for Russian news manipulation.
The austrian commentator (who was working for an austrian boxing committee before) on her semifinals fight said about that boxing org: “i’ve has seen quite a lot in my time, but they were the most corrupt org i ever saw” (he said “korrupter haufen”, which is derogatory for a corrupt group of people)
Repetition doesn’t break reason.
The author was right about you.
Arguments made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
If I made an absurd claim, such as: “Donald Trump was not born in the United States, he was born in Kenya.” Without any evidence supporting my claim, It doesn’t matter if a bunch of idiots jump on board agreeing with me. There is no moral imperative for Donald Trump to provide his birth certificate (good evidence) in order to dismiss my made up nonsense claims.
The article is pretty well done and shows exactly why this discussion is moot. There’s simply no merit to the accusation, plain and simple.
If an accusation comes from Russia and only from Russia, it’s part of their misinformation warfare. That’s not ad-hominem, that’s paying some fucking attention.
Exactly. So sick of reading about this non-news. There is nothing here, were just chewing on Russian propaganda and arguing with each other (as intended).
It just bugs me the wording “wrongly questioned” - it’s never wrong to question, you just have to be prepared to accept answers.
Not true, ‘just asking questions’ is a common media manipulation tactic.
For example, Why hasn’t Ted Cruz commented on the fact that many people believe he is the Zodiac Killer? It seems pretty odd to me that despite the public outcry, he has made no public statement as to this accusation. Why are you looking at me like that? I’m just asking questions…
Prove to me that you’re not a rapist right now. I’m just asking questions, but you better come back with proof fast before I start spreading the word.
No.
Come on, this is a complete fallacious argument… Being a rapist is connected to actions, which can’t be proven that didn’t happen. This is completely different from measurable and observable properties like “being blonde” or “having certain chromosomes”. You can 100% disagree on having to prove anything, but your example is completely wrong.
But it’s never wrong to question, you just have to be prepared to accept answers.
With that said, this wasn’t a denial.
I was not the person you were answering too. Just a random observer that has underlined the fallacy of that particular argument (it’s hard or impossible to prove things are not or did not happen).
I was being tongue-in-cheek and you still walked right into a hypocrisy trap.
Which hypocrisy…? The whole point of your argument is already addressed. You can’t prove anybody didn’t commit actions. mah…
She basically told the transphobic bigots to fuck themselves.
Transphobia hurts literally everyone, not just transgender people. Unfortunately this statement hits a little too close to home.
I feel so sorry for this person. Dragged into the spotlight of the world where everyone’s got a say about their gender, completely forgetting that they’re human first.
The “for” and “against” using her are sociopathic. Nothing feels more alienating that strangers sending positive and negative things to you, like they know you.
Nothing feels more alienating that strangers sending positive and negative things to you, like they know you.
I feel like you are creating a pretty strong false equivalence here. A bunch of people said nasty awful things about her that were untrue, attempting to interfere with her ability to remain in the Olympics, and potentially impacting her career. But somehow the folks sending positive messages her way are just as bad?
Seriously, it sounds like some “Both Sides” bullshit.
That’s because it is some both sides bullshit
Transphobia and misogyny hurt all of us, not just the targets of the bigotry. I hope more people understand that now.
Cue the Cool J.
deleted by creator
NBC News - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for NBC News:
MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - United States of America
Wikipedia about this sourceSearch topics on Ground.News
https://www.nbcnews.com/sports/olympics/algerian-imane-khelif-wins-boxing-gold-rcna166029
Removed by mod
I don’t think we know the details (beyond the blood test) because it’s privileged medical information.
She identifies as a cis female though (and was assigned Female at birth)
Removed by mod
Incorrect. There is no credible evidence to suggest that.
Removed by mod
I read it. The article never states that. Both boxers were tested and found eligible to fight before the tournament. Hours before Khelif’s championship bout against a Chinese boxer she was found ineligible. The IBA is corrupt top to bottom, from the refs to the president. “The public can read between the lines”. That’s a credible statement? The IBA is a credible source? It’s an unsubstantiated allegation. There is no credible evidence
Removed by mod
Man, you’re really invested in this. None, cause I’m not a gross weirdo.
Is that even the right measure? If a woman born with XY chromosomes can have a uterus and give birth naturally, what use is it?
She tested within normal testosterone levels for a woman which is significantly lower than the range for men. 15-70 vs 300-1000 ng/dL
Troll account right here👆
Less than a day old and two of the three comments are literally these two…
Removed by mod
How can you have an opinion on a fact?
Either provide realiable source or gtfo
Removed by mod
It comes from some Kremlin connected sports association. I wouldn’t even trust them with cutting my lawn
Correction three of four comments…
Removed by mod
We have regulations for just about anything but not gender in Olympics?
Olympic committee should put forward specific classification rules for woman and man in a binary sporting event.
It’s a Olympic committee problem not an athlete problem. Don’t let them sweep this issue under the rug.
Except even if they had regulations it would not have changed anything since she is a ciswoman
Imagine a corrupt state really wants gold. Why wouldn’t they register a whole batch of males as female (or duplicate register as both sexes) wait 20 years then clean up the women’s events?
so, the heart of your argument itself is sexist. Your argument is, basically, that a man is better than a woman at sports, just because he’s a man. Athletes at this level are insanely talented and fit. Some are even genetic anomalies, which explain why they can be so good at their sport. Simone biles is really small, which is why she’s so good at flipping.
A female boxer at this level would decimate a male boxer who isn’t genetically selected for and who hasn’t trained his whole life to get to that level. Being male doesn’t make one good at sports.
On the scale youre talking about, the government would be complicit in widescale corruption to rig a single event in an event where there’s no money involved for the winner, requiring several hundred people to be the athletes who might be good enough to go to the event, boatloads of money to train them, and even then, they might get one through the event if the athlete isn’t injured. All for what reward? A single relatively worthless gold medal?
Your argument is, basically, that a man is better than a woman at sports, just because he’s a man.
No. Women should always have the option to compete against men, (and prove they are better), if they chose to. But just look at world records if you need concrete proof that males have an advantage.
Many sports there is no physical advantage and some (e.g. climbing) women have the advantage.
On the scale youre talking about, the government would be complicit in widescale corruption to rig a single event in an event where there’s no money involved for the winner,
Not a single event, this could be done for multiple events, even without the athlete’s knowledge. For the first decade only a few record keepers need to be in the conspiracy.
All for what reward? A single relatively worthless gold medal?
Why? You should ask cold war Russia.
What exactly do you think the Soviet Union achieved by winning a bunch of medals?
The person you are responding seems uninformed on the topic of Imane and in spreading misinform.
However, Russia does have a sordid history messing with international sports. Look up all the scandals in figure skating and also last year Olympics. I’m not sure why they do it. I think it has to do with projecting power on the world stage.
I’m steering clear of the topic of Imane.
-
Propaganda and ideological superiority of communism.
-
Cold war rivalry. Proxy battle.
-
National pride and unity.
-
International prestige.
So nothing important then.
Yes, you’ve definitely come up with a plausible reason why a Muslim country would be okay with a transgender athlete. Algeria is just desperate for international prestige. It will definitely do something or other.
-
What do you think they would achieve in any practical way by winning a bunch of gold medals?
It’s the Olympics, not trade negotiations.
It’s estimated that the value of a gold medal is around $1 million in terms of economic impact, considering factors like increased tourism, sponsorship, and national pride.
Please do provide actual evidence for that claim. Specifically for a gold medal in women’s boxing.
I found that statistic on Bing. You can too.
I’m not specifically discussing women’s boxing.
Yes, you can find all kinds of fake statistics on Bing. That’s how the internet works. Let’s see the source of yours.
That’s a pathetically tiny amount of capital for a state.
You are asking about the total benefits of sending athletes to the Olympics, not the statistical weighing of gold medals in a regression model.
What the the absolute fuck are you talking about? This is some deranged paranoid nonsense.
Search the soviet unions athletic history for examples.
We should expect Rules and regulations regarding a cis woman. The Olympic committee should either allow them as is or lay out specific rules. Decisions cannot be adhoc.
You realize that she’s a cis woman, right? Right?
Or did you take the word from people on YouTube who talk about everything in a certain way?
It’s so fucking ridiculous to me that people are suggesting fucking Algeria has a trans athlete. Where next, Saudi Arabia?
They have a specific rule: if your birth certificate and passport say you’re a woman, you get to compete as one.
What rule do you think they should be using?
Except she was born a woman, raised as a girl and is a woman according to her passport from a country where being trans is illegal. So your argument is moot.
This the Olympics. What they do in their country is their problem. If trans was illegal in that country why would they want to highlight that issue by selecting that athlete. Makes no sense.
Because she’s not trans
Right. I was replying to a comment about trans athletes.
I think you might have come full circle here. Being trans is her country is illegal. Why would such a country send a trans athlete? Because she isn’t trans.
You aren’t talking about trans athletes, you’re talking about a woman who won a sport, and was demonized for being trans, and she isn’t even trans. The right wing had to make this shit up just so they would have a boogie man to be scared of.
She isn’t trans, what part of this are you having trouble with?
Hmmm maybe she’s not trans? Hmm?
She’s a cis woman.
Isn’t a little weird to focus on someone else’s genitals?
Like really weird? Creepy even? Are you weird too?
We already have regulations about gender in the Olympics. They’re discriminatory against transgender and intersex athletes, and disproportionately affect female athletes of color.
9If that wiki page is correct, then chromosome testing should be done. Was the testing done? What were the results? If it was not done, then why not?
How is women fighting women in a sport discriminatory against women?
I’m starting to think that you need some testing…
feeling is mutual.
Feelings are great, let me know when you can think critically instead of regurgitate nonsense and repeat disproven or intentional vagueries.
So was it critical thinking that made you say that I needed testing? Obviously critical thinking is not your forte.
Are you against regulations? That’s fine. I happen to support regulations.
What “disproven or intentional vagueries” have I said?
You stated that this person was intersex, and that was a valid reason for her disqualification up and down this thread, before the mods intervened of course.
Continuing to believe in disproven theories, or concepts without imperical evidence, is clearly a logical falicy at best, or you are intentionally spreading misinformation because you are a Russian bot at worst.
Give the above assertions, yes, mental health, intelligence, and a prescription of “touching grass” at a minimum. Are you an athlete? Do you compete at an Olympic level? No? Then how does that impact you in any way shape or form? Did you ever watch the Olympics to have any kind of investment? Honestly that’s all a little weird.
There are very simple regulations. You just don’t like the regulations. She was identified as biologically female at birth. It says so on her birth certificate. Her passport says she’s a woman. Those are the regulations whether you like them or not.
Chromosome testing is still discrimination against intersex athletes.
Winding back to my first post. The Olympic committee has to decide. Decisions shouldn’t be adhoc.
Athletes spend time and effort. They shouldn’t have to prepare for a competition where they will be expelled.
What makes you think these decisions were “ad hoc?”
What do you think ad hoc means? And what part of “we checked out this athelete and she met all of our criteria to compete in womans’ boxing” don’t you get?
What failing do you think the IOC commited in allowing a cis woman to compete in womens’ boxing?
Why should testing be done over some allegation by an organization that’s not recognized by the IOC?
How do you not know that chromosomes don’t tell anything near to the whole story? You can be XX and look biologically male your whole life or XY and the opposite.
I hate it when people think something as ridiculously complex as the human genome can be summed up so simply.
Yo mean xxy?
No, I do not. Like I said, it is nowhere near that simple. It’s like you didn’t even read that far down my post.
What issue is that exactly?
Really living up to your name.
Injecting testosterone is considered doping. So whatever their gender is, it’s not allowed. This makes trans people by default not eligible, regardless of what gender they’re playing as.
Have a look at this list: https://www.antidopingdatabase.com/facts/prohibited-list
My personal opinion is that trans people should just get their own part of the Olympics. Otherwise there is absolutely no way to keep it fair.
Whatever that decision is the Olympic committee should expand rules and regulations to cover edge cases. Decisions shouldn’t be adhoc. It’s not like we didn’t know about hunan genetic makeup before this Olympics.
Genitals genitals show me your genitals!
Injecting performance enhancing substances like testosterone is not allowed. So the rule is already there. The reason for injecting them is irrelevant and not part of the rule. If we can simply use a counter argument to nullify a rule that doesn’t really make it a rule anymore. We should however add possible edge cases in the future, but that doesn’t mean that we should be using opinions in current rulings before finding something that suits everybody.
Keep in mind that I’m not claiming anything about Imane Khelif.
Make it 2 classes, open and restricted.
Clear rules on who is allowed in the restricted class.
Edit People down voting, do you not want a restricted class?
When it’s a cis woman you’re worried about against other cis women? No? I’m starting to think that we should have civics tests to use the Internet…
It seems that, going forward, a stricter definition and (private and respectful) testing of cis categorisation would reduce the pain and suffering (from armchair commentators like ourselves) of all future competitors at top levels of womens sports.
Umm is the person in the correct weight class for this event? Yes. Okay next!
For the “men’s” event, yes. Weight is the only restriction. Women should be able to fight in the men’s event if they qualify.
For the women’s classification there must be a clear line drawn somewhere between “has given birth” and “changed their name to Sue”.
(I have no preference exactly where that line is drawn)
The youngest Olympian this year is a 12-year-old from China competing as a skateboarder. The youngest ever was an 11-year-old who competed in gymnastics.
Should we be letting those young girls know whether or not they count as girls through some sort of unspecified genetic test?
Why do you think women need to be protected by having to prove they’re women? Do you really not get that tons of women would be discouraged from competing if they felt they had to satisfy some white knight’s genetic criteria?
Should we be letting those young girls know whether or not they count as girls through some sort of unspecified genetic test?
If there is no gender advantage there is no need.
Do you want to go further and say for skateboarding and gymnastics there should be no segregation?
Women do need segregation, for saftey more than anything. There needs to be a clear line otherwise these arguments will continue to occur.
Do tell us what makes a woman a real woman.
That is an excellent question that the Olympic committee should answer clearly and definitively.
You are the one claiming she’s not a real woman. It’s up to you to define it.
They already have an answer, you just don’t like it.
I’ve not claimed anything about any individual.
I’m saying that a male/female checkbox on a passport is an inadequate test for a top level sporting event. The Olympic Committee need a better answer to avoid similar discussions in the future.
Whatever the decision is the Olympic committee should make it and not run away from contested issues.
What is contested about a cis woman boxer boxing cis women?
They made it.
Not really. “the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport.” is inadequate. For example this definition doesn’t cover intersex cases or state sponsored fraud.
Weirdly, the only people who seem to find it inadequate are the people who just can’t accept Ms. Khelif is a woman who can box other women.
It is inadequate because what is written on a piece of paper can be different in reality.
An intersex person is unlikely to have that listed on their passport.
Again, it seems like the only people who find it inadequate are people like you who think women need the protection of people with penises from other people with penises when this is not something most female athletes want.
But hey, you know what’s best for women, right? They shouldn’t worry their pretty little heads about it.
wrongly questioned
Were the allegations actually disproven? What I’ve read is that the IOC chose not to investigate.
Yes. She’s female and was born female.
It’s illegal to be transgender in Algeria, and the only complaint came from a Russian boxing body with a history of making suspect claims in the past.
the only complaint came from a Russian boxing body with a history of making suspect claims in the past
And that was only after she defeated a previously undefeated Russian. Sounds an awful lot like sore losers making up excuses.
Sounds an awful lot like sore losers making up excuses.
Or, as they’re known in the Olympics, Russians.
This shit is why I say that Russian athletes shouldn’t be able to compete even under the Olympic flag. Russia has cheated and lied so many times that it baffles me that the IOC even lets them participate.
Or it would if their corruption knew any bounds.
Where are you getting this info? It was an Italian boxer named Angela Carini that started these allegations after 1 punch: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/02/sport/who-is-imane-khelif-olympic-boxer-intl
Carini apologized Friday for her treatment of Khelif. “I’m sorry for my opponent,” she told Italian outlet La Gazzetta dello Sport. “If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.”
"It wasn’t something I intended to do,” Carini said. “Actually, I want to apologize to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke,” she said.
Her complaint was then taken up by transphobic organizations around the world, including Russian ones: https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/40797618/algeria-imane-khelif-wins-olympic-gold-amid-gender-dispute
So I think that you’re missing that this “controversy” started before this year’s Olympics began. In 2023, a boxing organization (IBA) based out of Russia flagged Khelif as not passing eligibility after she defeated a previously undefeated Russian boxer. Khelif’s disqualification meant the Russian woman kept her undefeated title. I’m lazy & going to copy from Wikipedia here:
The Washington Post stated, “It remains unclear what standards Khelif and Lin Yu Ting failed [in 2023] to lead to the disqualifications”, further writing, “There never has been evidence that […] Khelif […] had XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone.” The IBA did not reveal the testing methodology, stating the “specifics remain confidential”. At the time, Khelif said the ruling meant having “characteristics that mean I can’t box with women”, but said she was the victim of a “big conspiracy” regarding the disqualification. She initially appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport but the appeal was terminated since Khelif couldn’t pay the procedural costs. After the appeal, Khelif organised her own independent tests in order to clear her name and return to boxing.
Alright back to my own words here. So the article goes on to say that in July of this year, the IBA said Khelif failed the test, but would not release the specifics about why exactly. The IOC said the ruling was “arbitrary” and “without due process”. That is the background that sets the stage for what happened when the Italian quit this year at the Olympics and everyone subsequently lost their shit.
Here’s the Wikipedia article, though feel free to check out other reputable sites for more detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif?wprov=sfla1
Oooh tnank you
So you are confidently answering people with wrong information, pushing hate against an individual, and your reaction to someone who educated you on the matter is just “thank you”? Maybe don’t spread misinformation if you are not certain, and edit your factually wrong comments…
Who am I pushing hate against that doesn’t deserve it? The Italian boxer is a transphobe. I linked sources. I don’t need to edit because it’s not that long of a comment chain and you can see the missing context. That’s how conversation works. I don’t need to exist to your specifications.
Where are you getting this info? It was an Italian boxer named Angela Carini that started these allegations after 1 punch: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/02/sport/who-is-imane-khelif-olympic-boxer-intl
Carini apologized Friday for her treatment of Khelif. “I’m sorry for my opponent,” she told Italian outlet La Gazzetta dello Sport. “If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.”
"It wasn’t something I intended to do,” Carini said. “Actually, I want to apologize to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke,” she said.
Her complaint was then taken up by transphobic organizations around the world, including Russian ones: https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/40797618/algeria-imane-khelif-wins-olympic-gold-amid-gender-dispute
She didn’t start any allegation. You are spreading miainformation.
The quote you cited is from days after, and she apologized for the case that was created, but she didn’t start any of it. Her interview after the match was 10 seconds…
She did add validity to the accusations and made it worse. So what if she apologized? She should still be banned AMD she should apologize anyway.
How did she add validity? She simply quit a match and said it was due to pain. People picked it up and made a case on top of, which is not her responsibility. Once that happened, she apologized for it.
She didn’t start any allegation. You are spreading miainformation.
The quote you cited is from days after, and she apologized for the case that was created, but she didn’t start any of it. Her interview after the match was 10 seconds…
The claim is not that she was initially considered to be a man by the Algerian government and then changed her public identity to that of a woman, but rather that she has some sort of intersex condition that elevates her testosterone levels into the masculine range.
All Olympians are genetic outliers. Do you really want to be the DNA police? Then every Michael Phelps medal should be returned because that man is naturally different from the rest of us. But he’s a man so we’re not talking about him.
https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming
Seriously. Phelps is pretty much genetically ideal for a swimmer, but nobody claimed it was “UnfAiR!!” when he swept the board multiple olympics in a row, garnering more gold medals than anyone in history, before or since.
One female boxer looks a bit “too” muscular and the bigots are up in arms. Fucking assholes.
And Khelif lost plenty of bouts in her career, but somehow, those aren’t relevant because, “I know a man when I see one.”
I actually encountered someone a couple of days ago herr on Lemmy that said it was unfair of Phelps to compete because he was too genetically superior. It was bizarre. Course it was on a thread about Phelps criticizing Chinese athletes who were doping so I imagine it was just a tankie trying his best.
And yet Katie Ledecky beats Michael Phelps on long distance swims.
And Simone Biles is arguably the greatest athlete of all time.
Here’s a source for Katie Ledecky beating Phelps: https://www.essentiallysports.com/us-sports-news-olympics-news-swimming-news-is-katie-ledecky-faster-than-michael-phelps-answering-the-burning-question-of-the-swimming-community-before-us-olympic-trials/
Simone articles:
https://www.upworthy.com/simone-biles-deserves-goat-status
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTNswsHfp/
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/nov/05/simone-biles-world-gymnastics-championships
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/sports/other/simone-biles-the-greatest-athlete-of-all-time/ss-BB1qLsIQ
https://asdnext.org/blog/the-return-of-the-greatest-athlete-simone-biles/
https://www.sbnation.com/2019/10/13/20912350/simone-biles-medal-record-gymnastics-greatest-ever
https://www.msn.com/en-my/sports/other/simone-biles-the-greatest-athlete-of-all-time/ss-BB1qLzmw
She’s obviously the greatest American gymnast of all time. I don’t know if you can go much further than that. Larisa Latynina makes it rather hard to win the argument for greatest gymnast of all time let alone greatest Olympic athlete.
And yet Katie Ledecky beats Michael Phelps on long distance swims.
She doesn’t. Phelps when he was 15 made a time 9 seconds slower than the record established during these Olympic games (although in 25m pool) by Ledecky in the 1500m. He, still at 15, swam 5 seconds faster than the 800m time Katie Ledecky just did in this Olympics (although in 25m pool), only 2 seconds slower than the record she established in 2016. See this.
Despite Phelps being a completely different athlete, not training for it, it’s quite reasonable to assume that once he was not a teenager anymore he could easily beat Katie (especially since long distance swimming requires maturity and experience to dose energy etc.). I think this reinforces the obvious fact that men do have advantages, and I really don’t see the point of trying to deny it.
If you want even more info, look at juniors (under 18) records:
- for 1500m a 16 years old swam more than 30seconds faster than Ledecky’s record.
- for 800m another 16 years old swam more than 20seconds faster than Ledecky’s record.
Was it him or Lance Armstrong that ended up getting caught doping? Pretty sure it was the latter, but also recall Phelps getting accused of something. If could’ve even been something irrelevant like marijuana.
Agree with your point, though.
It was pot for Phelps
And poor Sha’Carri
Lance Was the one that got accu of doping. He never got caught. Just didn’t contest charges by the anti doping agency after he retired anyway.
But also, everyone seems to do it in cycling.
I’m pretty sure he was caught. Like proven. It’s just they caught like virtually every other cyclist in that same race.
It was so bad that there are 6 Tours De France without winners because he and so many people behind him were all disqualified.
This is honestly an argument that I find very weak. I mean absolutely there are plenty of genetic advantages in general in sport. The problem is that not all sports have categories to isolate competitions for certain parameters. Swimming does not, so you could argue that is unfair by default, but that’s what it is right now. Fighting sports generally do have categories, both gender and weight.
If we leave alone gender, if someone had some condition (let’s imagine something that doesn’t exist) that would result in having muscle mass common for a 80Kg, but in a 70Kg body, that person would probably have an unfair advantage in the 70Kg category because weight is a proxy for muscle mass as well.
The only reasonable argument here is that the boxer, even if she has some genetic condition, still tested within the limits for female boxers. That is pretty much it, which means that whatever condition she has (if any), it’s not considered an advantage in the female category according to current standards.
What’s interesting is Katie Ledecky can beat him on long distance swims, if we go by their times. So how much of an advantage is gender in many sports at this level? And let’s look at disability - Usain Bolt had/has scoliosis, Ledecky has POTS, and many other athletes have “disabling” conditions. So why would intersex get a special category that isn’t allowed? It’s just transphobia.
Here’s a source for Katie Ledecky beating Phelps: https://www.essentiallysports.com/us-sports-news-olympics-news-swimming-news-is-katie-ledecky-faster-than-michael-phelps-answering-the-burning-question-of-the-swimming-community-before-us-olympic-trials/
Looking at the other comments, you are clearly not here to discuss, but I will make a good faith attempt and play devil’s advocate.
The difference between intersex and other conditions you mentioned is that it blurs the lines of a specific set of parameters that are specifically used to create categories between sports. Men and women are not fighting each other for more than anagraphic reasons (I hope we can all agree on this), and if a condition invalidates that distinction (I.e. gives some advantages that men have over a women), then it breaks the boundary of such categories in a similar way as it would be having someone from a heavier category fight in a lighter one (BTW, this is routinely done by having athletes go in terrible dehydration regimes).
Now this has nothing to do with this specific case, as there is no any objective proof for any of this, nor that she is intersex nor that she does have any advantage, but it’s purely a way to frame the answer to the question “what’s the difference between having scoliosis and being intersex”.
Edit:
I will add one more thing, comparing a sprinter to a long-distance swimmer is exactly like comparing someone who runs 100m with those who run marathons. Clearly there is an advantage, considering that Katie Ledecky is an absolute monster, but she would have beaten the 3 worse times only that men did in this Olympics, and that she would have been almost a minute behind the winner, meaning almost 2 full lengths. Of course men have an advantage…also if you took the time from https://www.worldaquatics.com/athletes/1001621/michael-phelps, you probably have seen that he was 15 at the time…
The thing is, other hormones can give advantages too. That people put so much stock into testosterone alone is bad science. That intersex conditions that involve testosterone are so hated is transphobia. Women should be in their neat little boxes and men in theirs and any anatomy that changes that is taboo and should be banned. Like where should an intersex fighter compete? If this woman was intersex and had LOCAH or PCOS or other conditions, should she not be allowed in any division of Olympics?
Why don’t we have testosterone classes instead of (or in addition to) weight classes, if it matters so much? All athletes with the same level of testosterone can compete, just like athletes that weigh the same compete against each other. Why dont we organize it that way instead? Isn’t that more exact and fair?
I didn’t mention testosterone at all. I am not a specialist and I mostly don’t care about the details. I specifically talked in functional terms: if whatever condition gives you some advantages that men have, then it breaks the categories that are established. In this way, that condition would be different from -say- having huge feet like Phelps, even if they give you an advantage, because there are no categories based on foot size in swimming.
Everything else is an interesting hypothetical discussion, and maybe one day categories will be based on more parameters. Fact is, today they are like this, rough and using proxies such as gender and weight to make fights that are more-or-less fair.
She is a woman who was born a woman and happens to have high testosterone for a woman, just like some people are taller than others. She just happens to be at one end of the testosterone spectrum.
Just because you want baseless rumors to be true doesn’t make them true.
Hold on, her testosterone levels are known? I haven’t come across them. What are they?
“Higher than average.” Hence the upper body muscles being larger that average for a female boxer.
It isn’t rocket surgery.
wrong. the IBA said they never did any testosterone tests. feel free to disprove me, but to my knowledge there is 0 evidence even hinting at her having high T
Where did I say anyone tested her?
So they’re not known.
Why would they ever make that known to the public. Would be a huge invasion of the competitors privacy. Kinda weird.
I haven’t seen any evidence that you aren’t a Russian bot.
There seems to be little credible hard evidence on either side, so anyone claiming to know the real truth here is just talking out of their ass.
That’s the point I was originally trying to make. This article is written as if the question has been conclusively answered, but it hasn’t been.
You’re making it sound like whether she’s trans is a valid question, which it isn’t
Her testosterone treated within the allowed range.
The genetic issue she has is in 1in 600 people. Not exactly rare
There is not really a need to. The allegation comes from the IBA which is unrecognized by the Olympics and is a Russian propaganda organization. A Russian boxer lost to her and an official who is now fired for corruption disqualified her. Her birth certificate and passport say female and her testosterone is within the range for women. You can’t just give extra screening to women you don’t find attractive.
There is not really a need to.
There is certainly a need to test, but this test (whatever it is) should apply to all women equally and definitively.
and the wba…but what do you care.
You mean another organization that tested her but never told us specifically what the test was, who administered it, who analyzed it and what the results were?
yeah. what was i thinking. they all must be wrong, you must be right. may the testosterone fuel imane end the sport for good for all women.
She wasn’t fucking tested for testosterone. And even if she was, women can have high testosterone.
But you and the other white knights telling women they have to prove they’re women if they look too masculine will definitely not discourage “real” girls and women from competing. I’m sure that 12-year-old Chinese skateboarder is just dying for someone to tell her she has to prove she has the correct amount of testosterone or the right type of genes or with a genital examination. You and the others want to torture kids and you don’t even realize it.
1, trans women are actually at a competitive disadvantage since hormone blockers also nullify the low levels of Testosterone that women produce naturally.
2, of all the fucking countries to suspect of “cheating” by fielding a trans woman, ALGERIA‽
Good points. And everyone should always upvote proper use of an interrobang.
deleted by creator
“Where did you hide the secret documents?”
" I’ll tell you, but first…"
*unbuttons blouse*
*funky seventies bass guitar and synths sounds*
I always downvote it.
What I’m going to say has nothing to do with the Algerian boxer, she was born a woman and if we started banning athletes from the Olympics whose rare genetics gave them an advantage, there’d be no reason to watch.
trans women are actually at a competitive disadvantage since hormone blockers also nullify the low levels of Testosterone that women produce naturally.
That is objectively false for combat sports. Blockers do not reverse the years of effects that testosterone has on their bodies development, such as skeletal structure and bone density.
I don’t understand this insistence on denying reality for the very niche topic of trans women competing in combat sports, it is dangerous.
If you don’t believe me, go listen to the interviews of female MMA fighters who Fallon Fox destroyed, and I’m talking like fractured skulls.
I’ll preface this with saying I am a contract absolutionist and the boxers in question qualified according to the IOC rules so I 100% support their participation and/or wins. I do want to point out:
-
Neither of these 2 are trans. They are DSD. Born and raised female their entire lives.
-
While I agree there are some long term developmental advantages that androgen blockers do not mitigate as far as I can tell all actual Trans athletes that previously qualified failed to do so after taking any requisite blocker regimen which, inconclusively FTR, strongly suggests they do mitigate most of the key advantages here.
That said, I do not agree with the IOC (and/or the relevant preceding governing bodies) being so inclusive for the female competition categories. But for a dysfunction in typical fetal development she would have been AMAB and squeaking into eligibility on a technicality is just a bad look any way you objectively look at it.
Prevalence of AIS in the population: 0.006%
Prevalence of Medallists in the Woman’s Welterweight category: 33%
While scientifically inconclusive this statistic supports the need for further hypothesis testing lest 49.994% of the population be relegated obsolete.
-
I’m aware that the Olympic boxer has DSD, and that it’s prevalent in an outsized portion of female combat sports athletes. I’m still of the opinion that they should not be discriminated against for using their genetic condition to their advantage in becoming a world class athlete. I see this as no different from how Michael Phelps has a condition where he produces a lot less lactic acid.
-
If you were implying that the Olympics should start genetic testing of athletes and screening them for these types of conditions, I am entirely against that, see my previous response.
Did you miss the part where I was very clearly and specifically talking about the case of trans women combat sports athletes? Those who had male levels of testosterone during their body’s development and who then transitioned.
This is a very niche subject, but for some reason people like the user I was responding to, insist on pretending that puberty as a male doesn’t matter if the adult athlete is on blockers, and that it does not give them an advantage in a combat sport. I’m not so much concerned about the advantage itself, as I am about the inherent danger to the other participants.
Striking blows from a musculature developed in male levels of testosterone, present an outsized risk of death, or permanent injury, to a female fighter/boxer. A risk that is significantly higher than the normal risks associated with combat sports.
-
-
Removed by mod
No, I cited a very specific and highly relevant scientific rationale, and then followed up with an example of what happens when you choose to ignore that reality for the sake of, whatever it is you believe you’re doing.
Combat sports are combat sports…MMA, boxing, etc., they’re COMBAT sports.
But I can tell from your ignoring the scientific reality of the situation, and choosing instead to call me a discriminatory fuckwad, that you’re someone who should be taken seriously. Clearly I’m not up to that task…
Even in a section of internet that is massively pro lgbtq, you’re being down voted for saying such utterly ignorant things.
Muscle mass completely aside, men are designed to punch better than women. The hips, arm length, and size of their hands are all better for combat sports and hormone treatment doesn’t take any of that away.
You don’t sound pro Trans so much as you sound anti cis. Like you just hate most of the population.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
I know nothing of this boxer, but a Trans boxer would have several advantages outside of hormone levels. Physically, males are much better suited for boxing than females. They have larger hearts, lungs, longer arms, bigger hands, and hips more in line to directly send power from punching and keep in balance. Muscle and mass aside, men are better suited at punching, and those advantages don’t go away with hormone blockers.
As to hormone therapy, do you think a professional m2f Trans athlete is going to be taking enough blockers to be towards the lower end of female testosterone, or taking just enough to be in the high end? This is a completely separate argument from the first point I’ve made, but im just curious as to why you would assume it nullifies all the testosterone. You have to have some in order to live. Your bones will go to shit, your heart won’t work right, and you won’t be able to make enough blood cells. Along with muscle loss, fatigue, and other issues. Hormone therapy will not take you down to 0 testosterone.
The claim is not that she is taking hormone blockers, and not that whatever condition she may have is known to the Algerian government or even to herself.
Bro please just fucking stop being such an insistent dumbass.
The article says the IOC honored what was on her passport. I don’t think there was any valid concern raised, it was just the Russian body doing Russian things.
Yes, they chose not to investigate. I suppose one might call the allegations unfounded, but without evidence to the contrary they can’t reasonably be called false.
The whole world:
“There is no evidence that shes is anything but a natural born woman. It’s clear this is fabricated outrage.”
You:
“They didn’t provide evidence of no evidence, so I am going to keep believing this fabricated outrage because I like being angry and refuse to stop.”
There’s a teacup orbiting the sun between Mars and Jupiter. There’s no evidence to the contrary, so it can’t reasonably be called false.
That’s not comparable here. Chromosomes and hormone levels are easily testable. (I don’t know what the IOC’s actual policy is, but I’m sure it’s something measurable.)
There’s plenty of evidence to the contrary. Teacups are man-made objects, rocket launches are closely monitored, and no rocket is known to have launched a teapot into that orbit. It isn’t absolutely impossible that something very much like a teapot formed there spontaneously, that a teapot was secretly launched there for no apparent reason, or that extraterrestrials placed a teapot there, but again there is evidence that these events are very unlikely to have happened. Russell’s goal was to illustrate that the burden of proof should be on the one making unfalsifiable claims, but he didn’t pick a good example - the lack of a plausible mechanism for the teapot to arrive in that orbit was even stronger evidence before spaceflight.
There’s a manhole cover out there that isn’t on a single NASA manifest either.
That’s an urban legend.
Does snopes have anything about a teacup?
deleted by creator
China launched the teapot on a rideshare rocket that delivered 60 other payloads. It’s top secret, and the US Gov doesn’t want to publicize that the Chinese have developed a space tug capable of inserting a 200g teacup into a mars transfer orbit.
Reread my post. I understood the reference.
Do you? Because you are making arguments he refuted decades ago.
Research the SRY gene. It’s why she “failed” a test that wasn’t looking for it. She was born female. She is female. Her passport says she’s female. The IOC says she’s female. The ONLY people making the claim are Russians and their bad science and conservatives and their bad faith.
To be fair, the Russians making the accusations are also malicious.
deleted by creator
I suppose one might call the allegations unfounded, but without evidence to the contrary they can’t reasonably be called false.
Neither can the allegation that I’m making right now, that you are a pedophile.
Women do not have to prove that they’re women. The IBA didn’t even say what test they gave her who administered it and who analyzed it. All they said was it wasn’t for testosterone.
Is that true? I’ve never thought about how it works for Olympics. But it’s completely self reported? If that’s true it does seem open to abuse.
She was born a girl. Do you really think Algeria, of all places, would be okay with a “male” athlete competing as a woman?
I don’t know anything about that, but that’s not what I was asking
That is all the IOC requires. Why should they require anything else?
It’s quite common to test for testosterone. For one because synthetic testosterone is on the doping list. That’s also why the IBA test is so suspicious. If her testosterone was at male levels, that should have been discovered way earlier with a doping test.
Again, the fake Russian test failed her for an unknown test but said the test WASN’T about testosterone. The gender thing has nothing to do with Russia.
- Russian official fails her for unknown reasons not repeated to testosterone.
- Transphobes call her a male for unknown reasons.
- Imane is tested for doping as frequently as other competitors.
It’s clear as mud when I look at ioc website. I am not sure you or prior poster are correct though. It appears there are suppossed to be some regulations about who can participate in the women’s category and that it may vary between sports. The new guidelines seem very nontransparant. If completely unregulated there is the opportunity for abuse. Your question of why is akin to asking why not simply allow athletes to self report if they are doping or not and simply allow them to participate without testing as long as they say they aren’t.
Okay, so how would you define ‘woman’ so that it is universal enough to fit all types of women even if you don’t include people who have ‘boy’ on their birth certificate?
Because there is no evidence Khelif is anything but a woman with a lot of strength and physical advantages as a boxer. Are we going to test Brittney Griner to see if she’s a woman too?
This isn’t a complicated case. She was born a female with female genitalia and has a passport issued as female and self reports as female. She is not transgender. What else is needed but to test for doping? Half of all women have higher than average testosterone levels, that is how averages work. Many top athletes are anomalies of some sort.
The IOC did create a framework for transgender athletes but that doesn’t apply to her. The fascists are just trying to smear her and paint her as a cheater and “other” like fascists do.
Half of all women have higher than average testosterone levels, that is how averages work.
I agree with your point and with what you said, but I want to clarify something:
That’s not how averages work. That’s how median works. For example:
-Person A: 4 units testosterone
-Person B: 4 units testosterone
-Person C: 7 units testosterone
Mean: (4+4+7)/3= 5 units
Median: 4 units
So 2 people would be under the average because one person shoots the average up.
The word average is often used to mean mean, however it can be used less specifically - median is a type of average as well.
From Merriam-Webster definition of average:
1a) a single value (such as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values
Also, things like testosterone levels in a population usually follow a normal distribution, where both mean and median are the same, so the distinction is often meaningless for practical purposes
Still, that’s not how the mean or the mode work. And one could argue a group of Olympic athletes is not a big enough population to assume a normal distribution. But yeah, you’re also right.
True of course haha. But among top athletes I’d expect the vast majority to be above (or below) average outliers in various metrics.
To add, the allegation was made by the International Boxing Association which is apparently controlled by the Russian plutocrats and gangsters.
It’s really a good example that it takes more energy to refute false allegations than to make them.
I don’t think there’s anyone out there who doesn’t know how averages and medians work, but thanks for telling us. I believe the person you’re replying to was just being sloppy with terminology, as is very common. Their point still stands.
I’ll say I didn’t know “average” could also mean median and mode as another comment pointed, maybe I wouldn’t have commented then.
It’s common to be confused over statistics, as they aren’t very intuitive, so I just wanted to clarify for whoever needs it.
Wow, where do you work? Where do you live? Have you not have a conversation with a member of the general public? There are people who can barely read. Not understanding statistics and averages is pretty common, and doing a quick summary to make sure everyone is on the same page is pretty good communication.
ssshh, woke facism is a young flower. dont tell the kids to reflect on things. womens boxing has become obsolete by this decision and the opposite of what these idiots that downvoted you happend. ofcourse she won. that is why so many women do want to box her. but those women dont matter as long as the dumb kids can get a kick out of pretending to fight the good fight.
